482 thoughts on “Trump’s last stand?”

1. Last night I thought I’d set up an American POTUS election post to get it out of the way.

   I’ve just heard Biden say that if he wins Florida it’s all over. So then it would remain to see whether that is the trigger for mayhem.

   Reporters keep saying the race is narrowing in key states, but I’m skeptical as to whether that is true.

2. “Trump praises supporters who surrounded Biden campaign bus on Texas highway”. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-02/trump-praises-supporters-who-surrounded-biden-bus-on-highway/12838766
   “United States President Donald Trump has expressed admiration for supporters who surrounded a Biden campaign bus driving on a Texas highway, in an incident being investigated by the FBI.
   Key points:
   Mr Trump told a campaign rally his supporters were attempting to “protect” the bus
   Up to 100 vehicles were in the “Trump train”
   A video of the incident appears to show one of the Trump supporter’s vehicles making contact with another car
   It comes just two days ahead of the US election amid heightened fears of civil unrest and violence before and after the election.
   Several videos on social media show dozens of SUVs bearing Trump campaign livery and American flags crowding around the bus on its way from San Antonio to Austin on Saturday local time.
   Mr Trump tweeted one of the videos saying: “I LOVE TEXAS!”
   He told a campaign rally later that his supporters were trying to “protect” the bus.”
   “One of the videos appears to show a Trump supporter’s SUV making contact with another unmarked car.
   The Texas Tribune newspaper reported that the sideswiped vehicle was being driven by a Biden campaign staffer.” The campaign meeting the car was driving too was cancelled.
   Somehow the words “German Brownshirts” came to my mind.”

3. Good luck, United States of America!!

4. Apparently trump supporters believe they will help his cause by causing traffic jams.
   This is the result of the Presidency being run like a professional wrestling franchise. Poor fellow USA.

5. Have another look John. The little white car was straddling the dotted line trying to squeeze in front of the Ute when there wasn’t any room.
   The Ute driver wasn’t having that.

   If it was in fact a Biden staffer in the white car then he should be investigated.

6. For a long time I was wondering why I was hearing identical talking points at the same time in church groups on different continents. This is why that happens
   https://youtu.be/LkUFwCR5mKk

   And then that leads to
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZKvWaVSh8I

7. Jesus Christ BilB !!
   That dude is Alex Jones level conspiracy theorist, only far left.

   Does he have an episode were corporations are making the frogs straight again ?

8. That dude is Alex Jones level conspiracy theorist, only far left.

   Always with the ad hom. Always playing the man and not the ball.
   How about refuting his arguments instead? (Or is that too hard?)
   Show us you actually have some intellectual clout, however feeble it may be.

9. Neither He nor she made arguments with evidence, just statements and feelings, no ball.

   All just far left propaganda that only a fool would lap up.

   Tell us zoot, have you ever verified anything they said, or just back it up with other statements and feelings you’ve heard repeated by a similar flavour of propagandist for the far left ?

10. Also, if there is a far right group, or ten, of conspirators misleading voters, do you think there are any on the far left ?

    I would suggest the was an equal number on either side given the cyclical nature of election results overall.

    If of course there are such diabolical super geniuses that group together unbeknownst to the proletariat.

11. Neither He nor she made arguments with evidence, just statements and feelings, no ball.

    Which is how you are arguing in these two comments.
    Pot. Kettle. Black.

12. Jumpy, the references ………….. as she said ………….. are all in the book in extensive detail.

    “I would suggest the was an equal number on either side “,… now you are just quoting Trump, …… “and there are good people on both sides”, …. no doubt!

    Its pretty obvious that Reagan marked a turning point in Republican politics. Serving the interests of the community was dropped as a policy objective and serving the interests of the Rich Guys was adopted.

    This is about the adoption of Friedmanian economics under the guise of Libertarianism.

    Remember Milton Friedman who came to Australia (1975) and was arguing for education coupons? Flat taxation and user pays … for everything?

    Works just fine for people with more money than sense but is a disaster for every day people on low incomes. They tried the user pays education in Africa, or rather the “World Bank” forced it on them, and it was a total disaster.

    Couple this together with the IDU Alliance and you have found your Deep State, only its Conservative, and Republican.

13. Remember Milton Friedman who came to Australia (1975) and was arguing for education coupons? Flat taxation and user pays … for everything?

    Yes, education coupons handed out equally by Government to nurture competition in education because “ one size fits all “ is dumbing.
    And a flat tax with a large tax free threshold, which I believe JD likes too, not user pay for everything.

    Libertarians are not economic anarchists, as you’ve been misled to believe obviously.

14. “Libertarians are not economic anarchists,” ….all evidence to the contrary Jumpy.

    As one Libertarian commented to me on John Quiggin one time, “If I want to pay people 8 cents an hour I should be able to. They can earn more with a second job”. That’s economic anarchy. Libertarian ideals are pretty loathsome, to every one but Libertarians.

15. Worth a read, Adam Tooze in Whatever happens, it will take more than promises to Make America Normal Again.

    The Trump phenomenon was a long time in the making, and there will be no easy fix.

    Eight years of ‘normal’ after the insanity of George W Bush gave us Trump.

16. Jumpy: “And a flat tax with a large tax free threshold, which I believe JD likes too, not user pay for everything.”
    Not the large tax free threshold bit.
    I am inclined towards the combination of a flat tax and UBI (Universal Basic Income) to give a very very simple combination that is also progressive. In its simplest form:
    1. The UBI would replace welfare such as pensions, child allowances and unemployment benefits but would not fully replace disability pensions. (The extra for disability would still be separate.)
    2. The UBI payment may vary with age but would not be affected by income, assets or marital status.
    3. The flat tax would be charged on ALL income after subtracting the cost of producing the income.
    2. The UBI/flat tax combo may be expanded to avoid the need some of our other forms of taxation/welfare.
    The above would make the very poor and very rich better off assuming that the UBI is large enough to at least fully replace some forms of welfare.
    In practice it would probably make sense to have a small tax free threshold and an extra levy on the very rich.

17. Yes Brian, It is a massive task undoing the Trump Trail of Destruction. One of the worst things about Trump was that he was the facade behind which an orgy of evil was being performed by GOP’s psycho army of deranged ideologues. You have to view all of Rachel Maddow’s (and others) posts to get a full picture on how much was going on behind the chopper noise of Trump.

    The election is not over yet. Anything can happen.

18. Jumpy,

    ” because “ one size fits all “ is dumbing.” Perhaps you would be the best example of that. But I don’t think that it is true (Jumpy is more exceptional than rulinial). You can have 50 different education systems and have an even worse result.

    To double the quality of educational outcomes the only thing the system needs to do is instil the power of inquisitive exploration in children from the earliest school age as executed by Lynne Hinton ( https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/conversations/lynne-hinton/7774372 ) and promoted nationally by FAPSA (
    https://fapsa.org.au/about-us/ )
    The advantage of this is that the outcomes are profound, broad spectrum, and absolutely free ie no additional cost to the education system.

19. Philosophy is the primary responsibility of Parents bilb2.
    Secondary responsibility is with the students own motivation.
    Thirdly in life, which includes schooling.

    Unless of course one wants to implant a philosophical positions on others despite their parents and even themselves.
    Which would be philosophically immoral.

    And what is “ rulinial “ ?
    I might want to be that if I knew what it was.

20. Jumpy, you seem to think philosophy has something to do with imposing belief systems on students. Nothing could be further from the truth. Studying philosophy teaches people how to think, not what to think.
    And could you translate

    Thirdly in life, which includes schooling.

    into English please? I have no idea what you think you are saying there.

21. As tought by the likes of Lynne Hinton, philosophy is also about expressing supportable ideas, listening to others without prejudice, and respecting others.

    Thanks for the Lynne Hinton links, bilb2, she made a massive difference to many of the lives she touched. After retiring from the government system, I last heard of her teaching philosophy part-time at Hillbrook Anglican College, in fact the secondary school that Greens candidate Katinka W-A attended. The school is noted for teaching personal development not covered in the formal curriculum to build personal resilience which necessarily involved social development, empathy, compassion etc.

22. I’ve done an update to the post as per below, based on two interesting articles:

    Rodney Tiffen has an excellent article The race that stops a planet: Our guide to the big three election-day questions. He looks at how the swing states are counted, and how the count is likely to unfold.

    He has a table of the states most up for grabs:

    

    He says:

    Among the first to have advanced counts will be North Carolina, Florida and Georgia. If Biden wins two of these he is headed for a strong victory; even one of them will be a good indicator.

    He also says:

    the United States is the only established democracy where part of one major party’s strategy is to make it difficult for likely supporters of the other side to vote. One blatant example in this election was the Republican governor of Texas decreeing that there would be only one ballot dropbox per county. This gave the Democratic stronghold of Houston just one for five million people, whereas previously it had eleven.

    Please note he said “one major party’s strategy”, not the usual ABC cop-out of “both major parties”.

    The Republicans have consistently undermined the democratic process in recent times.

    He also says:

    The United States has the most litigious elections in the world and the most politicised courts in the Western world, not a reassuring formula.

    Today the AFR re-published an article by Bret Stephens Goodbye principled conservatism worth quoting at length:

    If Amy Coney Barrett’s confirmation to the Supreme Court turns out to be the last major act of a one-term Trump presidency, it will be a fitting finale. Republicans, like the Federalist Party of yore, will consolidate power in the judiciary. Apart from that, they will have spent the past four years squandering their reputation, forsaking their principles, and trashing the kind of political culture they once claimed to hold dear.

    As victories go, the word Pyrrhic comes to mind.

    How did the conservative movement reach this pass? Hemingway’s great line about how one goes bankrupt — “gradually, then suddenly” — seems apt. But the tipping point arrived on a precise date: July 20, 2015. That was the day Rush Limbaugh came to Donald Trump’s political rescue after the developer nearly self-immolated with his remark that John McCain, who spent more than five years as a prisoner of war, refusing early release at the price of gruesome torture, should not be considered a war hero.

    “This is a great, great teachable moment here, this whole thing with Trump and McCain,” Limbaugh gushed. Americans, he said, “have not seen an embattled public figure stand up for himself, double down and tell everybody to go to hell.”

    Here was a stunning moral inversion. Limbaugh turned public respect for McCain’s wartime record into an act of surrender to political correctness. And he treated Trump’s shamelessness as an expression of moral courage. It set the template for the campaign, and presidency, that followed. Every time Trump lied, broke a promise, humiliated a subordinate, insulted a stranger, bullied an ally, tweeted something vile, said something idiotic, threatened to blow up NATO, and otherwise violated moral, political and institutional norms, his appeal among the Republican base didn’t decline. It rose. As far as they were concerned, he wasn’t embarrassing himself or degrading the country. He was “owning the libs” — hoisting them, as his supporters saw it, on their own petard of priggish propriety.

    This form of politics — not as a complement to statecraft, but as the outpouring of resentment — is what has come to define the conservative movement in the age of Trump.

    He says conservatives used to admire Edmund Burke, Milton Friedman, Scoop Jackson, Ronald Reagan and George H W Bush. Not anymore. Conservatism has become anti-liberalism:

    
    But anti-liberalism is not conservatism. At its principled best, conservatism holds that liberal ends — the right of the individual to enjoy the maximum degree of freedom compatible with the right of his neighbor to do the same — are best secured by conservative means. Those means are the practices, beliefs and institutions that, for the most part, lie outside the state: stable families, religious communities, voluntary associations, productive businesses, the habits of a free mind. Ultimately, the goal of conservative politics is to produce competent citizens capable of responsible self-government.

    Anti-liberalism, by contrast, seeks self-serving ends through illiberal means. The ends are the benefits that accrue from the possession of political power, ethnic dominance, or economic advantage. The means are the demonization of competitors for power and the delegitimization of people, laws, and norms that stand for the ideals of an open society.

    If you think it matters little to us, please think again. What we do about climate change in the next four years matters in terms of the future of life on the planet.

    I’ve heard that in the big cities of Texas many of the oppressed have been voting early. The Democrats taking Texas would put the monster back in the swamp.

23. Thanks Brian. I knew you had some connection from another time I put the link up, which I do periodically when it is relevant. Just jot down for reference a note the Associate Professor Phillip Cam at UNSW developed all of the resources for teachers to include the programme, and I believe they are all available.

    So Katinka will be the person to work on once she makes it to parliament to elevate the profile of Lynne Hinton’s efforts and successes.

24. “the power of inquisitive exploration in children from the earliest school age….”
    – bilb2

    Echoing a remark of Albert Einstein, who said that the main task for a school was to avoid crushing “that holy plant: curiosity”.

    Albert was a thinker – a philosopher if you like – who recognised that his achievements, modest as they were, had come through his endless curiosity. He applied it analytically. (But sometimes he needed assistance from mathematically stronger colleagues, who could suggest a tool suitable for his concepts, e.g. tensors for general relativity.)

    Off thread?

    It’d be good to have more MPs and Ministers who had strong curiosity with inbuilt BS Detection (TM).

    Examples: Barry Jones, John Button, Susan Ryan, Paul Keating, Senator Faulkner, Richard Casey, …..

25. waiting, waiting……

26. Ambi, my son Mark tells me that Biden is going to win, but we have the red mirage widely predicted.

    Mark isn’t sure, of course. The big result is that a hellava lot of Americans support Trump. There is no convincing repudiation.

    So even if Biden wins the future is difficult.

    I believe the cutoff date to watch is 12 December. We have to hope that a stacked Supreme Court does not add to its 2000 infamy.

27. Possibly a hostile Senate, also.
    Sounding similar to Australia in that regard. Did they copy our Senate, somehow??

    🙁

28. Ambi, their senate is a bit like ours. Same numbers from each state, and using every last number.

    With a hostile senate Biden can’t actually do much, like $2 trillion for climate etc.

    Very disappointing.

29. I remember reading many years ago that our Senate is based on the US model which in turn was based on a regular gathering of Native Americans.
    There seems to be a fundamental difference in that our Senate is obliged to consider legislation which has passed the lower house whereas a ratf*cker like McConnell can just refuse to table anything from their House of Representatives.
    Makes a mockery of their claim to be a Democracy.

30. zoot, no doubt our mob took a look at what was going around in relation to federal systems.

    For your point about Native Americans, see Great Law of Peace and Iroquois Confederacy.

    The role of women in the whole governing structure, which was quite sophisticated, is of interest, also notions of liberty, egalitarianism, and consensus rather than majority rule.

    The invaders from Europe seem barbaric by comparison.

31. Thank you Brian for the links. I agree wholeheartedly with your final sentence 🙂

32. I quit like the idea of Senates for Federations. It gives the smaller member States some protection from being stood over by the big ones.

    I have no idea the reason behind States having Senates other than to limit radical change, which I’m not unhappy about either.

33. Mr J,

    Do you mean “States having Upper Houses”?

    In Victoria the Upper House is the Legislative Council.
    It’s elected on the basis of regions (larger than lower house electorates).

    The only Senators Victorians elect go to Canberra.
    I agree about the Senate as a ‘States’ House’ giving a measure of protection to States with much lower populations….

    But then, on what basis do the States themselves exist?

    Are they each, simply regions surrounding convenient coastal ports? {Botany Bay, Port Phillip, Victor Harbour, Brisbane River, Fremantle, Derwent River, Port of Darwin…. have I left out anyone?? }

34. But then, on what basis do the States themselves exist?

    What, here in Australia or the US ?

    Queensland doesn’t have a Senate and most US States are landlocked.

35. NZ is Senateless and has many Ports.

36. Jumpy: I can see no reason why voters in small states should have more influence than those in larger states. On the other hand I can see the benefit of smaller states having more members per head of population so their concerns are less likely to be overlooked.
    You might have noticed that, in the past I have favoured systems where the votes of members of parliaments are weighted on the basis of how many people voted for them. I also like systems where the lower house systems give a clear decision re which party/coalitions form government and a upper house that more closely reflects support for minor as well as major parties. (Like our senate senate system does. The result of the negotiating this requires helps get better decisions.)
    The problem with the US bias in favour of small states is that there are too many small states and most tend to support one side of politics. There is nothing meritorious about the dictatorship of minorities.

37. Australia is a federation of pre-existing colonies.

    I don’t know how these colonies established their boundaries before federation began to be discussed, but I understand the Alfred Deakin tried to make NSW as big as possible. We’ve been suffering from his egomania ever since.

38. John ,“There is nothing meritorious about the dictatorship of minorities.”
    Like SA and Tasmania having more green clout in the Upper House as Victoria and New South Wales ?

    That sort of thing ?

39. Mr J

    Try and stick with me for a bit, OK?
    The examples I gave were all located in Australia, so – at a rough guess – I think I was talking about States in Australia.

    And I was talking about the existence of States, not whether they had an Upper House (or not).

    New Zealand is unicameral.

    It has Provinces (e.g. Otago, Southland, …..) some of which have ports. None has a Province Parliament. But I wasn’t writing about NZ Provinces. Nope, it was Australian States.

    Hope this helps, old bean.

40. In short older bean, the State boundaries were dictated to us by the Poms before we had an Australian Constitution.

    Not so much the US ( which is the main topic of this thread, just so ya know )

41. Jumpy: “Like SA and Tasmania having more green clout in the Upper House as Victoria and New South Wales ?” Would like more Green senate clout from Vic, Qld and NSW.
    BTW: The Greens have about 12% of the Senate positions which is about the same % of votes they get for the senate. No big injustice there. However, keep in mind that the Greens only have a bit over 1% of lower house members. MAJOR INJUSTICE HERE.
    The big injustice is the number of national party MP’s that comes from the minute national party vote.

42. Immigrants from Europe came here by ship in 18th and 19th centuries. Special spurts to population by things like the Victorian Gold Rush. Cities were established near ports of entry. Populations followed the jobs, farming, other prospects during those 120 or so years.

    Not rocket science; more like human geography and facts of transport and trade.

    “Blame the Poms” is a simplistic game, is it not, Sir?

    Now for the USA.
    Locals arrived from Central America? Siberia? Bison herds, agriculture, hunting.
    More recently, the East coast explored by early Norse explorers; then Poms (I can do it too), French, Spanish etc. Great maritime nations of Europe. Portuguese?

    Competition with the French in Canada, Louisiana; Spanish further down south.

    Tossed out the Poms: all mistakes owned by Americans (no ‘blaming the Poms’).

    Ports, agriculture; internal emigration across the continent; massacres; Gold Rushes in California and elsewhere; railroads; steamboats on the larger rivers; coal mining, heavy industry. You know all this. Statue of Liberty; refugees from pogroms and wars and famines in Europe. Free immigrants from Scotland, Germany, Scandinavia, Italy, Greece, Pommyland, Poland, Lithuania etc etc etc Send me your downtrodden yearning to be free.

    Some Amerindian names survive: Massachusetts, etc.
    It’s a fascinating history.
    I wish I knew some of it.

43. Meanwhile in the here and now US state on course to drown from sea level rise votes for climate change denier for president.

    Florida is the state most vulnerable to sea level rise, and is actually becoming awash in places.

    No rhyme or reason in what’s happening in some places.

44. Alan Kohler was fun tonight. Financial markets had a day of joy because it became clear that the Democrats would not control the Senate.

    This means that exactly nothing of Biden’s big spending plans will happen and the rich will not be threatened with tax.

45. Thank goodness the Republican majority in the Senate will protect Americans from the tyranny of affordable universal health care!
    (/sarc)

46. While they knock over Obamacare in the newly enhanced Supreme Court?

47. I’ve heard there is a funny thing going on with the senate election in Georgia that might just save the Dems, but I haven’t had time to research it.

48. On a more serious note I have seen nothing on what moves the Russians (and Iranians?) have made to corrupt the US electoral process. Apart from the assertions (months ago now) that they were definitely interfering, there don’t seem to have been any reports on how they are interfering. Could explain why the polling was inaccurate again.

49. While they knock over Obamacare in the newly enhanced Supreme Court?

    Of course. Has there ever been a greater threat than the ACA?
    And I would suggest someone should investigate the subsidies keeping mid-west farmers semi solvent. (Isn’t that socialism – giving other citizens money away to undeserving causes?)

50. Just had a look at the vote count in Arizona.
    I see that Ms Jo Jorgensen has garnered 1.37% for an outfit calling itself the Libertarian Party.

    Was she a dud?

51. Oh this is rich comedy.
    Just noticed that the Libertarian candidate has tallies like 0.9% or 1.1% in important States.

    Now suppose the Pres loses a State by 0.7% or 0.4%. If the Libertarian candidate had not been in the race, might the Pres. have won it??

    Damn you, Libertarian fringe Party!!

    The Donald wants a second term.
    How very dare you!!??

    (Somewhat reminiscent of the charge levelled at Ralph Nader many years ago, that he messed it up for a Democrat Pres. candidate.)

52. That Ralph Nader campaign was in 2000 with major Party candidates Albert Gore and one of the George Bush’s.

    90,000+ votes to Nader in Florida of the Hanging Chads. Winning margin there for Mr Bush was just over 500. But there were two other minor candidates who won around 17000 and 18000 votes each.

    So whether Mr Nader was “the spoiler ” who delivered Florida (or any other State) to Mr Bush, is in contention.

    Info from Wiki, your friendly loxal.information provider.

53. This is getting a bit florid:

    Donald Trump’s former top aide Steve Bannon has had his podcast permanently suspended from Twitter and an episode removed from YouTube after he said US infectious diseases expert Anthony Fauci should have his head put on a pike outside the White House.

    The ultra-conservative Bannon founder of rightwing publication Breitbart, also said FBI director Christopher Wray should be beheaded.

    A spokeswoman for Bannon said he was speaking metaphorically by referencing the bloody politics of Tudor-era England and did not mean the two respected officials should have their heads removed.

    – reported in “The Australian”

54. Maybe Mr Bannon forgot to include the

    tag??

55. /sarc> tag

56. Ambi, I thought Gore would have won if Ralph Nader had not been in the race.

    The biggest was probably Ross Perot, billionaire businessman who ran in 1992 (got 18.9%) and 1996 (8.4%). But for him Bill Clinton may have been an also ran.

57. TV networks cut Trump’s rant because he was telling too many lies. Even Fox seems to have turned against him.

    I think it was horrible him saying “they won’t let us into the room” when counting everywhere is being done with party scrutineers present.

    Patricia Karvelas tonight spoke to two guests, Ken Jarin, lawyer and fundraiser for the Biden campaign and
    Richard Painter, former White House Ethics Lawyer in the Bush Administration, current independent.

    Painter left the Republican Party when Trump took over. Neither had much good to say about Trump and the nutters around him.

58. Someone today was pointing out the US has been a serial offender in intervening in other countries’ election, ever since 1948, when they worried that Italy might vote in a communist.

    The Iranians never forgave the US for giving them the Shah, and Allende and Chile was classic.

    Just remembered, it was Tom Switzer in this episode of Between the Lines:

    A former Supreme Court judge says that the US is guilty of breaking the rules that they themselves, recommended.

    And how should we change our approach to China?

    Michael Pembroke, author of Play by the Rules: the short story of America’s leadership, from Hiroshima to COVID-19

59. “Decent losers are more important for the functioning of a democracy than radiant winners.”

    – Heiko Maas, Germany

60. Looks like Biden will win @ 9AM NSW daylight saving time 7/11/20. But the counting isn’t finished in some key states and some recounts are possible that, in theory, may change this outcome. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-07/us-election-recounts-states-donald-trump-joe-biden/12854696

61. The people who cast the votes don’t decide an election, the people who count the votes do.

    Joseph Stalin

62. Maybe.

63. Yesterday our time the security apparatus was heading Biden’s way to give him presidential type protection.

    Last night air space above where he was was made no-go.

    Last night he edged ahead in Pennsylvania and Georgia, while retaining Arizona and Nevada.

    The official count won’t finish for days, and there may be some recounting, but that doesn’t change much beyond hundreds in counts numbering millions if the past be a guide.

    What usually happens is that when it is clear that Biden has won, as it seems to be now, the TV networks call the election, the loser concedes and we go from there.

    The TV networks are reluctant to do the usual.

    Andrew Romano last night said they had been polling people on the implications of their side losing. He said that from both, Republicans and Democrats, the feeling was that it would be a disaster from which America would never recover.

    POTUS should be calling for calm. Biden is, and is sounding presidential. The emerging situation is that we have a president elect, and a dictatorial pretender clinging on.

    Romano said that given the populous propensity to carry guns and threaten to use them, the place is pretty much a tinderbox.

    We just have to hope that good sense prevails.

64. The story on the Senate is that a third is up for election, the Dems needed 4 more to go their way to reach a majority.

    However, if Biden becomes POTUS, Kamala Harris becomes president of the senate with a casting vote, so they only need three.

    Apparently they picked up one, so that leaves two.

    For some reason both seats in Georgia are up for grabs. Under Georgia law the senator must receive a majority of votes. In both cases I think the Republicans are in front but fall below the 50% by a small margin. The Dems are close, but there has been a small third party vote.

    If that is the final count there will be a run-off I think on 5 January.

    Romano said that both sides were likely to chuck $3-400 million into the campaign.

65. There is a good summary at New Daily – Joe Biden all but claims presidency saying he will win and tackle coronavirus.

    Biden has won more than 50% of the vote, which Hillary C didn’t do, and has more that 4% more than Trump.

    Seems the only place likely to recount is Georgia, which is not essential for Biden.

    I’m told that if Trump wants recounts where the local officials deem it unnecessary, the GOP will have to pay.

    Further, the GOP is short of cash which is why Trump was doing so many rallies (also illegally using White House staff and facilities).

    Trump may in the end be forced to plea bargain.

    However, it would be good if his gripes were tested in the courts and rejected by them.

66. Brian,

    I heard a US Law prof say last night that a couple of the Trump campaign’s Court attempts had already been thrown out.

    Apparently in US Courts it’s traditional to demand
    E-VI-DENCE.

    (It also seems that many voters who selected Mr Biden instead of the Libertarian Party candidate, did NOT vote Democrat in a Senate or House race. These folk wanted Pres Trump out, but for whatever reason, didn’t support other Democrat candidates.

    As people say over here, “It Is What It Is.”

    (Some Aussie voters have a habit of voting differently in the HoR and Senate.)

67. Ambi, SBS news showed I think it was a Republican governor say what we need is E-VI-DENCE. I think enough states will soon declare giving Biden 270 plus. Biden will then remind people that as of then he has the numbers to be president-elect.

    Trump has been quiet. Some of the Whitehouse staff didn’t show up to work and the Whitehouse chief of staff has caught the virus.

68. Also in the New Daily Paul Krugman asks ‘We are in big trouble’: Is America becoming a failed state?

    The Republican Party has won the popular vote only once in the last eight elections, yet has appointed six of the nine supreme court justices.

    Wyoming with 579,000 residents appoint as many senators as as California with 39 million. It skews the senate to the right, and they play hardball with their numbers.

    So we are in big trouble.

    Trump’s defeat would mean that we have, for the moment, avoided a plunge into authoritarianism – and yes, the stakes are that high, not just because of who Trump is, but also because the modern GOP is so extremist and anti-democratic.

    But our skewed electoral system means that Trump’s party is still in a position to hobble, perhaps cripple, the next president’s ability to deal with the huge epidemiological, economic and environmental problems we face.

    Put it this way: If we were looking at a foreign country with America’s level of political dysfunction, we would probably consider it on the edge of becoming a failed state – that is, a state whose government is no longer able to exert effective control.

69. On the Saturday salon thread I linked to an article by Dennis Atkins After watching the US election, Australia really is the lucky country … for now. At the head of the article there is a photo from AP with the caption:

    Observers say no evidence for Trump’s fraud claims

    The head of an international delegation monitoring the U.S. elections said on Thursday his team has no evidence to support President Donald Trump’s claims about alleged fraud involving mail-in absentee ballots. (Nov. 5)

    End of story – should be.

70. Pennsylvania apparently goes to Mr Biden with a margin of +0.51%, above the ‘trigger’ for a recount.

    Reports say mail-in (etc.) votes being counted now are going to Mr Biden with a ratio of 3:1, so the margin will grow slightly.

    Commentators point out that Florida in 2000 had a “wafer thin” margin of around 500 votes.

    The Biden/Harris margins are in the tens of thousands at this stage. Therefore highly unlikely to be reversed in a recount.

    BTW, I think Paul Krugman rather overstates his argument. I don’t wish armed militia to begin ravaging the USA, but it’s a long way from a “failed state” IMO.

    Political division is a characteristic of democracies. A state fails if the institutions cease to function.

    A state without political divisions? Examples that spring to mind are autocracies where ‘political homogeneity’ is imposed from “above”. Where dissent is not allowed to be expressed, let alone allowed to coalesce in opposition Parties or organised associations. Of course I’m talking about extreme cases (ask the Tibetans, ask the Uighurs, ask the Burmans); but then Mr Krugman is taking a strong stance. He started this!
    😉

71. Ambi, without arguing about the definition of a failed state, the US was getting to the stage that if you disagreed with Trump you were sacked.

    Certainly with Jerrymandering and the suppression of votes the organs of state were being used to pervert democracy.

    Now the major media organisations ( I think Fox News may have been the first) Biden’s victory has been declared.

    Biden – ‘We have an opportunity to defeat despair’: Biden pledges to govern for all Americans.

    It’s up to Republicans how they react, but I’m betting their first priority will be trying to make Biden look useless.

72. Brian: “It’s up to Republicans how they react, but I’m betting their first priority will be trying to make Biden look useless.” My take is their first priority will be to distance themselves from Trump.

73. “ We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organisation in the history of American politics “
    Joe Biden ( 2020)

    If you haven’t seen the audiovisual evidence of him saying that from your “ trusted media “ and don’t question that trust then ask yourself why.

74. Voter suppression?
    Yeah, the Republicans suppressed to vote to the highest in US history.

    In fact they’re try to suppress the deceased from voting too !!!

75. Roland B Hedley put it best:

    Have to hand it to Dems, stealing this election was very sophisticated operation. Defeating Trump while leaving almost all GOP senators in office (to throw people off) is some seriously genius cheating. Hope courts see through it!

76. Context is everything.

77. Oh, the same media that have been covering for Biden, declared him President ( although nowhere in the US Constitution does the media have the authority to declare elections), pushed every unverified rumour about Trump but refuse to verify anything about Biden, that media ?

    The full Q and A

    When podcast host Dan Pfeiffer asked, “What’s your message to the folks who have not yet voted or do not yet have a plan to vote?” Biden responded:

    “Republicans are doing everything they can to make it harder for people to vote. Particularly people of color to vote. So go to iwillvote.com. Secondly, we’re in a situation where we have put together, and you guys did it for President Obama’s administration before this, we have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics. What the president is trying to do is discourage people from voting by implying that their vote won’t be counted. It can’t be counted. We’re going to challenge it and all these things.’

    Who do you think “ you guys “ refers to ?

78. Earlier this afternoon I heard an academic from the university of Oklahoma who had spent 13 years, from memory, as an election lawyer.

    There is so much litigation around elections in the US that it seems lawyers can make a living out of it.

    He said he’d seen or heard nothing that a judge would look at.

79. Who do you think “ you guys “ refers to ?

    I have no idea and I care even less.
    But I must say it’s very amusing watching you clutch at straws while at the same time you’re clutching your pearls.

80. I have no idea and I care even less.

    Of course not, the corruption is going your way, for now.

81. I see Krugman mentioned above. He even got it totally wrong in his field of “ expertise “ declaring the US economy would crash if Trump was elected in 2016.

    Wrong, it boomed.

82. Is Jumpy suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome?

83. Of course not, the corruption is going your way, for now.

    Completely, comprehensively, wrong again sir.
    Not my circus.

84. How fitting, I don’t think I’ve laughed this much in years.
    Of course it could be an indication of the Trump campaign’s financial situation.

85. I’m sure if Trump remains President after the real result is known you’ll not care.

    By the way, any right wing, Christian, white supremacists rioting and looting yet ?

86. By the way, any right wing, Christian, white supremacists rioting and looting yet ?

    You mean apart from the two armed bozos who were trying to deliver fake ballots?

    And BTW, wasn’t it you who asserted that the Trump supporters were the ones with the guns? You offered a very clear threat with that comment, but it appears your wet dream remains unrequited … so far.

87. Jumpy, the whole world has been thankful there has been no blood on the streets – yet.

    Trump should now be co-operating in the transition. People who know about this stuff say the gold standard was set by George W Bush handing over to Obama. Perhaps he had time to reflect that the Clinton security people had warned that Osama Bin Laden was the most immediate threat and one to watch.

    They thought they knew everything and the rest is history.

    One of the little matters Trump has on his mind is that Deutsche Bank will almost certainly want to disengage to get rid of their brand-damaging relationship. It could take a $340 million chunk out of his assets if he has any unencumbered.

88. By the way, any right wing, Christian, white supremacists rioting and looting yet ?

    You imply there was rioting and looting when Trump was elected, yet all I recall is millions of women taking to the streets in peaceful exercise of their first amendment rights.
    Is your history different?

89. whell, Brian, Trump has developed, completely by accident … some … smarts from his time. He started out with the idea of using the 2016 election as a self promotion platform, then accidentally got elected. During the process he developed a certain kind of blind belief following (not unlike the televangelists). I think Trump knows full well the game is up , at least as far as the dictator role is concerned and now he is manoeuvring to survive. To that end he is refusing to concede for the moment while the senate reruns are going on, and talking up a 2024 run. The 2024 run is the important thing as this allows him to commence fundraising while his base is still raw and hot. a little envelope maths test, what would a base of 70 million donating $5 each provide as an election war chest? Toss in some MAGA hats and some Tee shirts to push that up to $25 and Trump is a billionaire,… finally. Pay out Deutsche Bank, the IRS, a bunch of lawyers and he is retired cash ahead. Run the scam again, develop some bone spurs coming into the 2024 run up, push Jared into the lime light, and Trump can run the world from his TV room via Twitter until he dies.

    One little thing that might have escaped peoples attention is the spoiler role that Libertarians played in Trumps demise. it was only 1.5% in several states but it was the difference between winning and losing for Trump.

90. The new game in town, Screw the Base.

    https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/us-politics/us-election-donald-trump-emails-americans-demanding-money-to-defend-the-election-but-half-goes-to-paying-off-his-debt/news-story/1fe2083e9a59307109594aa44fe8c82c

    And from a The Hill Article

    “The Trump campaign is requesting donations for an election legal defense fund, but according to the fine print, at least half of any contribution will go toward paying down debt from the president’s reelection campaign.

    The fundraising effort comes as President Trump has mounted legal challenges in battleground states including Michigan, Georgia and Pennsylvania. Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden has pulled ahead in those states as vote counting continues.

    The Trump campaign has won one legal fight so far, which allowed its election monitors to stand closer to the ballot counting in Philadelphia.

    ADVERTISEMENT
    The Wall Street Journal first reported that the Trump campaign, as well as the Republican National Committee (RNC), have sent dozens of texts and emails calling for financial support as Trump legally challenges the voting procedures.

    “We must PROTECT the Election!” one text signed by Donald Trump Jr. reportedly reads. “My father’s calling on YOU to help bolster our critical Election Defense Fund.”

    On the donation page, first highlighted by the Journal, there is a disclaimer that says 50 percent of any contribution will go toward the general election campaign debt retirement and 50 percent for the campaign’s recount account.

    Another legal aid fundraising pitch, according to the newspaper, leads to a donation page for the “Make America Great Again” committee, with fine print noting 60 percent of those donations go to ending campaign debt and 40 percent go to the RNC.

    If you give money to Trump’s recount/postelection litigation efforts, half of that money will go towards retiring his campaign debt instead, per the fine print. pic.twitter.com/JnryvupS67

    — Rick Hasen (@rickhasen) November 6, 2020″

    Have Fans, will exploit!

91. Yes, bilb, and there was a story Trump is going to have some more rallies to keep the thing moving.

    I also heard a story that Biden supporters are ringing up the GOP and feeding them with fake stories about fake ballot stuffing.

    Meanwhile deaths per day from the virus are up around the 1000 mark, and Congress continues, but hasn’t yet passed the Covid relief bill, which took second priority while they stacked the Supreme Court and renters are being evicted because they can’t pay the rent.

    What will happen will happen, and in America that can be almost anything. The ‘land of the free’ doesn’t look like godzone country right now.

92. One little thing that might have escaped peoples attention is the spoiler role that Libertarians played in Trumps demise. it was only 1.5% in several states but it was the difference between winning and losing for Trump.

    Only if the libertarians would have voted for Trump in the absence of a third candidate. This is not guaranteed, particularly as voting is optional. They might have just stayed home.

93. All sorts of mayhem. At the Guardian:

    Trump ‘voter fraud hotline’ inundated by prank calls

    At the ABC:

    Inside the Trump campaign as it grapples with defeat while plowing forward with legal fight

94. Tom Tomorrow sums it up.

95. Thanks, zoot.

    Story this morning is that Trump has sacked his defence secretary.

96. Brian: “Story this morning is that Trump has sacked his defense secretary.”
    Unusual. “Presidents who win reelection often replace cabinet members, including the Secretary of Defense, but losing presidents have kept their Pentagon chiefs in place until Inauguration Day to preserve stability.” Guess Trump still believes that he has been reelected.

97. John, I understand Trump is a serial sacker of anyone who disagrees with him. Not sure what this guy has done or said.

98. Mother Jones is nervous about the whole handover thing.
    See “Garbage In, Trash Out” https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=wm&ogbl#inbox/FMfcgxwKjKwjrGsxXFCDgSTlfrwtBcQd
    Trump has the power to do a lot of damage before 20 Jan.
    “President Trump, who refuses to concede, will retain his power for a little more than two months. He’s already fired Defense Secretary Mike Esper and tweeted so many false accusations of election fraud that I haven’t bothered to count how many times the social media site has found it in everybody’s best interest to censor them. He has half a billion dollars of debt coming due in the next few years, and he won’t have the office of the presidency to protect him from any legal repercussions of his shady business dealings. (The New Yorker has a good article about how screwed he is.) But until Biden is sworn in, we’ll have to contend with whatever stunts the lame-duck Trump gets it in his mind to pull.”

99. Good points zoot at 10.21pm.

    I heard someone say that many of the Libertarian Party voters would not have bothered to vote at all if she hadn’t stood.

    So those wouldn’t be former Trump supporters for a start.

    Voluntary voting has more vagaries than compulsory voting.

100. The media in America, both legacy and social corporations, have found it in the public interest to censor the President of the United States of America !!

     This is how rotten the media have become.

     None of these arseholes can use be believed as defenders of free speech rights ever again.
     They will reap what they sow.

101. The media in America, both legacy and social corporations, have found it in the public interest to censor the President of the United States of America !!

     I presume you are referring to incidents such as Twitter flagging Trump’s lies and Fox News cutting away from Kayleigh whatshername’s lies.
     It’s actually the media’s job to fact check the President. If all they do is disseminate the President’s every utterance it is propaganda.

102. Just the opinion of a disinterested bystander, but Trump appears to be throwing the mother of all tantrums.

103. Apologies for employing an over-used word, zoot, but I would call Pres Trump’s behaviour unprecedented .

104. From ABC News in the US – Biden team says legal action is ‘certainly a possibility’ as agency’s delay hampers transition:

     President-elect Joe Biden’s transition team believes that the time has come for the General Services Administration (GSA) to “promptly ascertain Joe Biden and Kamala Harris as president-elect and vice president-elect,” adding that if the GSA refuses to do so, a variety of options are on the table, including the possibility of legal action.

     “There are a number of options on the table; legal action is certainly a possibility, but there are other options as well that we’re considering,” a transition official said on a call with reporters Monday night when asked about potential legal action.

     …

     Traditionally, the GSA would recognize a candidate that has clearly won the election, allowing the winning ticket’s team to access a variety of resources available to aid the transition process.

     But so far, GSA Administrator Emily Murphy, who was appointed by President Donald Trump in 2017, has made no such determination.

     Murphy is supposed to be running a nonpartisan organ of state, but she has made it partisan.

     Bruce Shapiro told Phillip Adams that it looks like the US will have two governments running in parallel for the next two months.

105. It was reassuring to learn that Dr Fauci is beyond the reach of the Firer in Chief because his position is not filled by the Hirer in Chief.

     It may be that the Donald has never really understood the extensive work done by a transition office (and needed); reports say his was underfunded and much of the work usually done in the two+ months had not been done by the time of his Inauguaration That Was Definitely Bigger Than Obama’s.

     Shallow, narcissistic…. are there enough apt adjectives? ?

106. Trying to block the homework an incoming president and his team need to do amounts to treason? It shouldn’t have to wait until every appeal has run its course.

107. Since the US issues only one ballot paper with all of the contested positions on it – President, Senate, House of Reps, State Judges, Sheriffs, dog catchers, old Uncle Tom Cobbley and all – I’d be grateful if any passing Republican could explain why all those dead people cast their illegal vote for Biden and then insisted on voting Republican in the Senate and House?
     The level of vote rigging Trump is trying to establish would give the Dems control of everything (including the dogcatcher).

108. And how perverse to organise “split votes”….
     Or is that simply evidence of their fiendishly clever plot – covering their slimy trail ……

     B*stards!

109. There was an abnormally large amount of Biden only votes and nothing down ballot in swing states ( other States normal )That reflects why the Dems did so poorly down ballot yet, apparently, Biden and his dynamic campaign drew more enthusiasm than even Obama got.

     That’s just one of dozens of suspect anomalies that will be looked at before Biden can be called President Elect, if he in fact eventually does, but he’s not yet despite the media lying about it.

     I repeat, Biden is NOT President Elect.

110. That doesn’t tell us why the Democrat dead people didn’t secure the Senate, where ratf*cker McConnell will simply block everything Biden tries to achieve.
     And a link to the source for your assertion of “nothing down ballot” would be gratefully received, E…Vid…Ence and all that.

111. For you, zoot:

     “We’ve Uncovered A Sophisticated Plan To Rig The Election” Say People Who Accidentally Booked A Press Conference At A Landscaping Company

     – headline from “The Shovel” (Australia) {{{ satire warning }}}

112. It just occurred to me that gaming the Presidential vote but ignoring the Senate is a level of incompetence only eclipsed by whoever booked the Four Seasons Total Landscaping car park

113. Snap!

114. Is Biden President Elect right now or not ?

     I’m saying not, and who ever says he is is wrong or lying.

     Change my mind……

115. It’s amazing that the same media (D) that declared for the last 4 years that Trump stole the the election now vow any questioning of the electoral process is crazy talk by crazy people.

     The brazen hypocrisy of the media(D) is disgusting and should hurry their demise.

     One minute they’re hyperventilating over an unnamed source, three parts removed from a conversion, overhearing something, next minute Hunter Biden’s laptop shows up and they don’t want to see it.
     And silicone valley (D) ban talking about it.

     That should hurry their demise in a liberal country.

116. So, no evidence of fraudulent voting, just like Trump who is batting 0 for 10 in the courts at the moment.

     Is Biden President Elect right now or not ?

     Well, since he has won enough states to put him over 270 EC votes, yes. But only if you’re going by the rules that applied to Clinton, Bush, Obama and Trump and all who preceded them.
     Of course we have to treat the Toddler-in-Chief differently, no matter what damage it does to the Nation and since he is calling for Republican states to ignore the votes of their people and thereby corrupt the Electoral College, I guess the answer is no.
     Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.

117. It’s amazing that the same media (D) that declared for the last 4 years that Trump four years ago stole the the election when he reached 270 EC votes, now vow any questioning of the electoral process is crazy talk by crazy people are doing the same for Biden.
     FIFY
     PS: When did fox News become (D)?

118. Well you can save your keystrokes because the Trump Cabal have decided to short circuit the process, sweep the will of the people aside and install a puppet government ,…….

     https://youtu.be/-xJ_ryfhTCI

     . At the same time they have just installed political operatives into Pentagon.

     Take not of which world “leaders” …didn’t …. endorse Biden.

     If Trump succeeds in this suspension of democracy then the big game is on. Civil conflict is inevitable in the US and every part of the extended game I have suggested as possible outcomes moves to being highly probable.

     In a global power realignment Australia is merely a physical strategic resource, and its people, we, become problematic.

     For the future of the US it might be advisable to do a quick history study of Rhodesia’s Bush War and then a look at how Mugabe appeased his followers as the economy descended into oblivion. This was all in our lifetimes. The thing I see in this conflict was a pattern of provocation and retaliation which once it starts is very hard to eliminate. Consider how quickly the graphic video of George Floyd’s murder inflamed the nation.

119. … take note of ….

120. Biden may well become President Elect when the Electoral College meet and vote and declare him so on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December, and not before.

     Nowhere in the US Constitution does it say the media(D) do it.

     So now that you know then you can regard everyone that should know a liar for saying so. ( that includes the ABC )

121. BilB, as I’ve said previously, the left should be very, very careful in promoting civil war in the US given who has the overwhelming firepower, knowledge and training in such things.

122. So now that you know then you can regard everyone that should know a liar for saying so.

     Always happy to take advice from such an esteemed Constitutional expert.
     I’m surprised you didn’t mention this very important point when the media referred to Trump as President-elect after Hillary Clinton conceded (very graciously as I recall) well before the results had been certified and well before the Electoral College votes were counted.
     I have written to Tucker Carlson to let him know (four years too late alas) that according to you he was a liar in 2016.

123. BilB, as I’ve said previously, the left should be very, very careful in promoting civil war in the US given who has the overwhelming firepower, knowledge and training in such things.

     Ummm, the Army? The Marine Corps? The armed black guys who scared the bejesus out of the white thugs in Portland?
     Just a gentle reminder that Jumpy is threatening violence again. Power grows out of the barrel of a gun Mr J?

124. I know there is a allure to living in fantasy zoot, I’m just giving a perspective of reality.

     And your recollections are questionable to say the least. Got any evidence or do you only demand that from others?

125. You could try this for a start. Seems to confirm my recollection. And here’s something more contemporary.
     Your turn now. Where’s your E…Vid…Ence for

     There was an abnormally large amount of Biden only votes and nothing down ballot in swing states ( other States normal )

126. Jumpy, I suggested there could be Civil Conflict. You escalated that to Civil War. Do you see how low empathy leaps to escalate conflict?

127. BilB, and I’m tired of folk redefining terms like Civil Conflict, Court Stacking and President Elect to suit ridiculous arguments they are wrong on.
     But hey, giving babies their bottle when they’re crying over nothing is both stupid, lazy and empathetic, best to let them cry themselves to sleep.

128. Good advice there Jumpy. Advice I have forwarded in your name to the White House on handling the big Orange baby, where such advice is totally needed and appropriate.

129. Transition from one administration to the next is a serious part of the American system where with the separation of powers the president is meant to run the show. In the fluidity of the modern world there is serious danger involved when I heard today Trump did not just fire Mark Esper, his action:

     raised concerns that he may be planning far-reaching military moves in his final weeks in office — and is putting in place new leadership more inclined to go along.

     I heard today he is replacing replacing a large number of officers in the defense and security apparatus with people who are lawyers rather than qualified in defense, and who are ideologically aligned with him.

     The commentator I heard said she thought it was covering his tracks rather than up to something, ensuring that there would be no continuity.

     Another commentator has said that the 9/11 Commission Report identified the disruption of transition in 2000-2001 had problems that contributed to Al Qaeda going under the radar in 2001 whereas they were very much in the sights of the Clinton administration. The report is here.

     Section 6.4 goes into considerable detail how the baton was dropped. There was a difference in style starting at the top, with Clinton a voracious reader, and Bush someone who liked to talk rather then read. However, the changes in structure went way beyond that.

     In Section 13.4 the report says:

     In chapter 6, we described the transition of 2000–2001. Beyond the policy issues we described, the new administration did not have its deputy cabinet officers in place until the spring of 2001, and the critical subcabinet officials were not confirmed until the summer — if then. In other words, the new administration — like others before it – did not have its team on the job until at least six months after it took office.

     Trump is up to something, so we’ll need to watch this space.

130. The Trump residency is exposing all of the weaknesses in the US system. Assuming his coup doesn’t succeed they will need to pay some serious attention to strengthening their democracy.

131. A strange suggestion on ABC Radio National this morning: perhaps the very recent appointments in Defense are supposed (by their appointed in the White House) to scour for and de-classify information tending to undermine persons likely to fill senior roles in an incoming Biden Administration.

     But not a “coup attempt”.

     (This hypothesis would be consistent with the newcomers being lawyers rather than military strategists or military policy experts.)

     If true, a tactic of the lowest political b*stardry, the kind of despicable behaviour alleged by Pres T against such foes as Pres Obama, Secretary Clinton, and dozens of “Swamp Dwellers”.

     Pot, meet Kettle.

     None of the above, if fairly accurate, is inconsistent with:
     1. Pres T gathering up donations for now (or 2024)
     2. Pres T not really wanting to be elected Pres four years ago
     3. Pres T being scared of civil prosecution after leaving the White House
     4. Pres T wanting to delay as long as possible any concession, or official declaration of Mr Biden’s ascent
     5. Pres T failing to efficiently organise his own transition (e.g. high positions in Washington left unfilled for months)

     Cheerio

132. Postscript.

     Such actions by outgoing Pres. T would by no means be unprecedented in US politics.

     I instance
     a) Watergate Hotel break-in at DNC offices seeking a Castro/McGovern connection
     b) the so-called Steele Dossier seeking to undermine candidate Trump
     c) invitation to the Russian State in public by candidate Trump, to hack Secretary Clinton’s missing emails; subsequent leaking to Wikileaks
     d) alleged actions of Pres Obama to seek evidence of Trump/Russia collusion
     e) investigation of the Whitewater matter
     f) investigation of the Lewinsky matter

     Etc etc etc

     In US politics, especially with long-involved politicians like Hillary C or Joe B, there is always likely to be something suss to dig up or to hint at……

133. Trump’s ousting of officials and elevation of loyalists could have lasting effects:

     President Donald Trump and his allies in the administration are dislodging officials across the government and burrowing loyalists into agencies in a way that could make them difficult for President-elect Joe Biden to remove next year.

     No-one is sure what he is up to.

     Last night David Shulkin Under Secretary of Veterans Affairs for Health from 2015 until 2017, emphasised the importance of the transition, which begins with as soon as it becomes clear how the voters have voted, which if not on the night is usually within the first week after the election.

     He said that on 20 January about 4000 workers in the old administration will walk out of the door at noon and will not be back. Of them about 1250 of the newbies have to be confirmed by the senate.

     This is akin to starting manufacturing a Covid vaccine before trials are finished and regulatory approval finalised. Everyone knows that the critical date is the electoral college vote on 12 December and that technically there can be court challenges and stuff. There is also a feeling that Trump is trying to persuade a few Republican state legislatures to go rogue and ignore the formal vote count, which has now been declared in 50 states, with a recount scheduled in Georgia.

     There I think Biden’s win was 20,000 in about 5 million. Recounts don’t usually change that much.

     Trump is trashing normal procedure, and it may be worse than that.

134. Crikey, Brian!

     The CNN article you linked to is very detailed, informative and worrying.

     Why sack the head of the “semi-autonomous agency” which manages the nuclear weapons stockpile? That sounds like exactly the type of position where continuity and experience should be the paramount criteria for selection (retention).

135. Here’s an opinion from some guy called Karl Rove:

     Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is correct that Trump is “100 per cent within his rights” to go to court over concerns about fraud and transparency. But the President’s efforts are unlikely to move a single state from Biden’s column, and certainly they’re not enough to change the final outcome.

     – Wall Street Journal

136. I believe the law suits pursued by Donald Lame Duck would be classified as frivolous in any sane country. But if he conceded he might have to spend some of his alleged vast fortune paying off campaign debts. (Remember when he said he would be putting his own money up? Promises made, promises … )
     By not conceding he ensures the rubes who think they are contributing to his legal costs are in reality donating 60 cents in the dollar to retiring the debt (read the fine print you dumbos).
     A grifter to the end.

137. This is an accurate summation.

138. Brian, Pompeo was joking if you listen to his full answer. Good old CNNs Tapper and Fredo are experts at editing the context out to align with their narrative.

     In any event, I think Biden will become President Elect after the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December. But there is plenty of evidence of fuckery with thousands of ballots in the swing States. Those will be investigated, hopefully measures put in place by those States and in the future neither side can cheat to the same degree. That actually strengthens Democracy and is in total alignment with their Constitution.

     Calm down, it’s all fine and working.

     The down side for CNN is Antitrumpism was all that was keeping them afloat, with Trump gone they’ll whither away into dust.

139. “But there is plenty of evidence of fuckery with thousands of ballots in the swing States.”

     You have to back that up with links to said evidence, Jumpy, because from every thing I have seen the claim is total “fuckery”.

     Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VdcIVbX_0

     Project Veritas again. The more times their name comes up the more corrupt they become. This young guy will go to jail for lying in an affidavit. But the real story here is just how desperate Republicans are to manufacture evidence. If Jumpy’s claim was true then this sort of corruption would not be necessary.

140. Brian,

     “The commentator I heard said she thought it was covering his tracks rather than up to something, ensuring that there would be no continuity.”

     I’m certain that is very much the case. I fully expect to be hearing a lot, especially, about Mnuchin in the future.

141. The down side for CNN is Antitrumpism was all that was keeping them afloat, with Trump gone they’ll whither away into dust.

     Care to wager $100 on that? Put a time frame on it and I’ll bet $1000.
     And as for evidence of your completely unfounded assertions of fuckery just point us to the far right web pages where you got this information, or did it like so many of your arguments originate in your rectum?

142. Yeah I’ll go 2 pineapples to the Flying Doctors if CNN aren’t downsizing inside the next 12-18 months.

     Who will you donate to ?

     Remember, it’ll be 3 years till the next Republican Hitler emerges for them to focus on to get clicks and their Obama worship years saw a marked decline. Trump saved them from oblivion, soon he’ll be gone right ?

     Shit yes, the bet is on and receipts will be made public.

143. Bilb2, being a huge fan of tyt you’d have followed their election coverage and witnessed Cenks condemnation of the DNC right ?

     His disdain for Biden ?

144. It’s remarkable that Anna, being of Armenian heritage, can join with Cenk in denying the genocide.
     I’m sure it’s lucrative, good for her.

145. And where is the E…Vid…Ence (your term) of vote fuckery (your term) in the swing states? It’s looking more and more like you pulled the concept out of your arse. (Like every other Republican propping up the Loser in the White House)

146. Jumpy, I didn’t watch TYT’s coverage but I am fully aware of TYT’s perspective on the corporate Democrats, and I am 100% in agreement. You do realise that TYT is the Progressive voice? Corporate Dems are the sad Baby Boomer remnant which is effectively Republican Lite determined to hang on to positions for personal comfort, rather than act for the well being of the greater community.

     Ana Kasparian doesn’t deny the genocide, from my reading, Jumpy, and whereas Cenk in the past has done so, he has been corrected and withdrawn much of what he said as a younger person.

     Also hanging the genocide on The Young Turks is also false, from what I can see. The group that orchestrated the genocide originated in The Young Turk revolution but became a separate party (the CUP), a bit like The Tea Party, and dominated by extreme figures such a Trump and McConnell who similarly took delight in deportations and caging children.

     However as you are an enthusiast for hypocrisy, lets now talk about serial China abuser Donald Trump who has all of his merchandise manufactured in that country.

147. New theory today is that Trump sacked Esper and the rest because of the Russia thing which he sees as a bunch of sore losers who tried to delegitimise him.

     If he is plotting a coup, we are told that the generals will have none of it and completely want to stay out of politics.

148. I think the role of these clowns is to load some code into the Pentagon computers for Putin. “Here is a new laptop for your new job, just plug it in once your in there, good luck”

149. The latest is that Biden is being denied security briefings by the Trumpster.

     A republican senator on a Congressional security c’tee has said that if that doesn’t change by week’s end he will intervene personally to make sure it happens.

150. More on voter fraud in Pennsylvania.
     The only documented case so far is the case of a Trump supporter from a town near Wilkes-Barre, Robert Richard Lynn, who has been arrested and charged with applying for an absentee ballot for his mother, who died in 2015. Lynn, a registered Republican, is charged with forging his dead mother’s signature on the application.
     Not enough to change the result of the election.

151. More and more, the Trump campaign looks like Spinal Tap.

152. The Chinese and the Pope have congratulated Biden.

     Now, via Axios Department of Homeland Security calls election “the most secure in American history”:

     A top committee made up of officials from the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) and its election partners refuted President Trump’s claims of widespread voter fraud and irregularities in a statement Thursday, calling the election “the most secure in American history.”

     CISA was set up by Trump in 2018.

     Now there has been a Joint Statement from Elections Infrastructure Government Coordinating Council & the Election Infrastructure Sector Coordinating Executive Committees:

     “The November 3rd election was the most secure in American history. Right now, across the country, election officials are reviewing and double checking the entire election process prior to finalizing the result.

     “When states have close elections, many will recount ballots. All of the states with close results in the 2020 presidential race have paper records of each vote, allowing the ability to go back and count each ballot if necessary. This is an added benefit for security and resilience. This process allows for the identification and correction of any mistakes or errors. There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised.

     “Other security measures like pre-election testing, state certification of voting equipment, and the U.S. Election Assistance Commission’s (EAC) certification of voting equipment help to build additional confidence in the voting systems used in 2020.

     “While we know there are many unfounded claims and opportunities for misinformation about the process of our elections, we can assure you we have the utmost confidence in the security and integrity of our elections, and you should too. When you have questions, turn to elections officials as trusted voices as they administer elections.”

     I heard today was that Trump, in addition to conning his supporters for donations to pay off the campaign debt’ is telling them to contribute to a “save America” fund.

     My bet is that the funds will go to setting up a TV channel that Trump can use to purvey his alternative reality.

153. A comment today was along these lines:

     1. He’s unlikely to succeed in setting up a TV network to rival Fox News, but might angle to be paid as a regular contributor there.

     Other possibilities
     2. Immediately set up a campaign fund for a 2024 Pres. bid

     3. A lucrative book deal, with highly paid speaking engagements (c.f. Mrs Clinton, Mr Clinton, Mr and Mrs Obama, etc.)

     Of course he may face all sorts of court appearances; my feeling is that neither Pres Biden nor Pres Harris would be inclined to grant him Presidential pardons.

     ***
     Another comment says his recent twits are following his usual pattern: stir up an almighty ruckus then sit back and watch how it unfolds…..

154. CNN projects a win for candidate Biden in Georgia (first Democrat Pres win there for 28 years.)

     Hence they project 308: 232 as the final Electoral College tally.

155. Two Senate run-off contests will then finalise the Party composition of the Senate.

     Possibly VP Harris will have a casting vote in that chamber? Still a long way off….

     Apparently the Republican Senate run-off candidates are both propounding preposterous propositions of vote fraud. Caveat emptor!!

156. Apparently The Donald has spoken at his current accommodation. He mentioned “whichever Administration is in charge then” (hopes for an April vaccine).

     That’s as close as Donald has come, to acknowledging that Donald may have lost. So far.

     Baby steps.

     ****
     The Donald was not available to take questions from reporters. (They’ll have to buy the book, dummies!!)

157. Ambi, this article asks What’s behind Trump’s refusal to concede? For Republicans, the end game is Georgia and control of the Senate :

     It appears all these efforts are aimed at one goal: energising the Trumpian base for the Georgia run-off elections by delegitimising not only Biden, but the election process itself.

     The long-term implications are momentous. The US is already bitterly divided, as demonstrated by the large voter turnout on both sides in the election. This division will only deepen the more Trump presses his claims and signals he won’t go away silently.

     This continued fracturing of the US would prevent Biden from achieving one of the main goals he set out in his victory speech: bringing Republicans and Democrats together.

     If half the country buys into his claims of a stolen election, the real danger is the erosion of democracy in the US as we know it.

158. It appears all these efforts are aimed at one goal: energising the Trumpian base for the Georgia run-off elections by delegitimising not only Biden, but the election process itself.

     That’s way beyond Donald (lame) Duck’s cognitive abilities.
     It’s probably what the Republican tacticians are doing, but POTUS is simply chucking a massive tanty.
     And while I’m here, the good folks at the BBC have tested the claims (repeated here by our erstwhile Mackay correspondent) that a massive number of dead people submitted ballots.
     Turns out to be a very dodgy claim.

159. Here’s a recap of what the US can expect post January 20.
     It’s a bit of a hoot.

160. There might be a new deep state hero emerging, sweeping away the now defunct “Q”.

     “Now is the time of …… Uanon ….. The time for U to come out from behind the veil of lies of Q, and make this next period the Millennial Quadrennial. U must take control of our future, a ….. Progressive ….. future, an inclusive future where U_all take responsibility to build a new America and act to save the World’s Environment. For those who ask, “U” is young in spirit, energetic, compassionate, creative, and determined. If this is not you, then you are not “U”. Good luck U“

161. US President Donald Trump has tweeted that president-elect Joe Biden “won” the 2020 presidential election only because “the election was rigged” — reiterating false claims of widespread voting fraud.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-16/donald-trump-joe-biden-falsehood-rigged-election-tweet/12886094
     He is right about elections being rigged but he failed to add that “the system is rigged in favour of the Republicans.” The US needs a major overhaul of their system. They might start by looking at the Australian system.

162. We borrowed their Senate setup, and they ahould feel free to copy our AEC.

     “Democracy is Coming to the USA” – Leonard Cohen

163. Not sure whether this is pay-walled, but Crikey has a story by Amber Schultz An autocrat refuses to step down. His sycophants support him. Is this a coup?

     The media feel obliged to cover what he’s doing, but

     How do you cover something that, at worst, lays the groundwork for a coup attempt and, at best, represents a brazen lie that could be deeply damaging to American democracy?

     There is little doubt Trump would conduct a coup if he could.

     What is stopping him?

     He has sufficient support (they say dictators need roughly 30% minimum support).

     The election counting system appears to have been strengthened since the hanging shards of 2000.

     The legal system has been bent, but is not completely corrupted.

     The armed forces and secret service swear allegiance to the constitution rather than to a person.

     Those things should be enough to get through this assault on democracy. How it goes from there we’ll have to wait and see.

164. Pedantry warning.

     In 2000 they were hanging chads .

     For some grotesque amusement, see the bloke with eyes popping out as he stares at a mystery chad [Wikipedia: chad (paper)].

165. Thanks, Ambi. I believe there is an analogue to the chads this time in that there is a tick in a circle which may be read differently by the naked eye in a recount as compared to a machine.

     Here’s something to send a shiver down your spine:

     The arcane loophole that could let Trump retain control of the White House.

     Michael Bradley explains the details of the college voting system. The main thing is that the popular vote has no standing in the constitution. The electoral college consists of actual people elected by the state legislatures taking into account the vote of the people.

     Two states, Maine and Nebraska use a “district” system for allocating their college votes, so the college votes are split in proportion to the vote.

     The rest are winner takes all. Since 1860 a total of 33 states plus DC have passed laws that require their electors to cast their votes in the college for the candidate who won the popular vote in their state.

     Apart from the possibility of college electors going rogue, there are 17 states that are not legally constrained to take notice of the popular vote. It’s a matter now of custom. I don’t know which states, but it is possible that Republican states could select Trumpian college electors:

     remember, the constitution does not, anywhere, say that the president is elected by the people. The president is elected by the college, and the college is a creature of the states.

     It’s unlikely. However, if you think the Republicans aren’t war gaming this right now, you definitely haven’t been concentrating.

166. From Nine newspapers:

     US President Donald Trump asked senior advisers in an Oval Office meeting on Thursday whether he had options to take action against Iran’s main nuclear site in the coming weeks.

     The meeting occurred a day after international inspectors reported a significant increase in the country’s stockpile of nuclear material, four current and former US officials said on Monday, local time.

     A range of senior advisers dissuaded the President from moving ahead with a military strike. The advisers — including Vice-President Mike Pence; Secretary of State Mike Pompeo; Christopher Miller, the acting defence secretary; and General Mark Milley, chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff — warned that a strike against Iran’s facilities could easily escalate into a broader conflict in the last weeks of Trump’s presidency.

     Any strike — whether by missile or cyber — would almost certainly be focused on Natanz, where the International Atomic Energy Agency reported on Wednesday that Iran’s uranium stockpile was now 12 times larger than permitted under the nuclear accord that Trump abandoned in 2018.

     This raises questions about the accord struck with Iran by a previous Administration: Obama’s?

167. Didn’t the Donald withdraw from that agreement?
     (Part of his attempts to undo everything the uppity black guy had achieved)

168. Yes he did.
     See the final sentence in the quote. …”the nuclear accord that Trump abandoned in 2018.”

     The Donald certainly displayed an aversion to his predecessor.

     But, but, he so wanted to have a Nobel Peace Prize and now {sob} that’s looking unlikely.

169. Here’s a little straw in the wind:

     Republican legislative leaders in Michigan’s capital of Lansing on Friday confirmed they have no plans to circumvent the popular vote for President in the state by appointing electors friendly to Trump to cast votes in his favour.
     – Nine newspapers

     OK, so that’s one State.

170. Ambi:”Republican legislative leaders in Michigan’s capital of Lansing on Friday confirmed they have no plans to circumvent the popular vote for President in the state by appointing electors friendly to Trump to cast votes in his favour.” The fact they felt compelled to say this just shows how fragile the situation has become.

171. “But, but, he so wanted to have a Nobel Peace Prize and now {sob} that’s looking unlikely.”

     He could have got one if he had resigned a year ago!

172. 🙂

173. As befits a stable genius who sent casinos bankrupt it appears Il Douche may have shot himself in the foot in Georgia.

174. That Georgia Secretary of State ….. thinks Mr Trump may have queered his own pitch!

     the typically mild mannered @GaSecofState comes out swinging in our interview – says Donald Trump cost himself the election by discouraging mail in votes: “he would have won by 10 thousand votes he actually suppressed, depressed his own voting base”

     The Ev-Id-Ence?

     Tens of thousands of registered Republicans who voted in the Republican primaries did NOT vote in the general election.

     Hmmmmm, and who was Discourager-in-Chief of postal ballots?

     It’s not proof, but it’s interesting, zoot.

175. Yeah, all man and no ball Mr A.
     Isn’t Raffensperger one of those Lincoln Project RINOs ?
     I’m not totally sure, it’s messy.

     But hey, when the Electoral College meet and announce either a President Elect or Trump second term we will have clarification one way or the other.

     Then on the 6th of January Congress announce the winner, and not before.

176. Then on the 6th of January Congress announce the winner, and not before.

     This statement would have some weight if you had also made it when I referred to Trump as President-elect the day after the 2016 election. Failing that it looks like you’re simply a disciple of the Sore Loser.

177. And while I’m here, Trump’s legal team is looking more and more like a version of Spinal Tap.

     Well now Rudy Giuliani has asked to make an appearance in the case for the Trump campaign. His application says he’s a member of the DC Bar in good standing (seeking pro hac vice status). But he’s suspended for not paying his bar fees.
     This lawyering is a joke.

178. Being very naive and all that, Mr J, I admire Mr Raffensperger’s seeming steadfastness in the face of criticism and threats.

     Seems to me, their system (and ours) depend on thousands of officials and volunteers to do their civic duty without fear or favour , and the last thing any citizen should wish for is partisan taint on a voting process.

     There’s already far too much of that in their elections.
     Discouragement of enrolment
     Prohibition of enrolment
     President telling everybody beforehand that the process is riggable and likely rigged
     President telling people not to use a postal ballot in the Year of COVID
     Partisan electoral officials

     and more I’m sadly sure….

     Down here in Vic the ALP is grappling with cleaning io their Party after major branch-stacking was exposed, leading to three Ministerial departures. Most would trust Jenny Macklin and Steve Bracks to do their Party duty rigorously.

179. Jumpy: “But hey, when the Electoral College meet and announce either a President Elect or Trump second term we will have clarification one way or the other.” The scary thing is that, constitutionally, it is possible for the election results to date to be ignored.
     The US badly needs a review of how their alleged electoral system works and ways of avoiding bias.

180. The Donald J Trump Presidential Library has a web presence already.

181. John

     The US badly needs a review of how their alleged electoral system works and ways of avoiding bias.

     How so ?

     The United States of America is a Constitutional Federation. Even the smallest States are guaranteed 3 electoral votes and the rest are determined buy the census, all combined not exceeding 538 ( Silvers polling organisation was named because of that ) in a quota system. Plus both houses get a proportion of seats up for change in the General election.

     What bias do you speak of ?

     It’s far more Democratic than our Senate quota system.

182. What bias do you speak of ?

     Oh, I dunno, maybe the the fact that two partisan hacks can potentially disenfranchise a whole city?

183. Here’s an interesting, if depressing, analysis of the future of democracy. It’s long, but worth the effort.

184. From Nine newspapers:

     Biden was asked by a reporter on Thursday, local time, about Trump extending a White House invitation to Michigan state lawmakers in an apparent bid to overturn the results of the election in the state, which Biden won.

     Biden shook his head, noted that “there’s questions whether it’s even legal” and said the move was “outrageous.” He added: “It’s hard to fathom how this man thinks.”

     Speaking broadly about Trump’s refusal to concede the election, Biden said Americans are “witnessing incredible irresponsibility” and warned that “incredibly damaging messages are being sent to the rest of the world about how democracy functions.”

     Thank you, Mr Biden.

185. zoot, that article is a cracker. Democracy with universal suffrage is a recent phenomenon. Even then most countries lack important elements, like some form of preferential voting. I regard compulsory voting as also important, and would prefer public funding of campaigns and laws about truth in political advertising.

     However, the article starts with two important concepts we often overlook.

     One is the ownership of property, which included the notion that your right to own property was conditional on your developing it and doing something productive with it.

     The second is that democracy was not common in the 18th century when the American constitution was formulated. He doesn’t say this, but the notion of an electoral college was to protect the election process from democracy, in case the voters, who in any case were mostly white property owners, got it wrong.

     His analysis of the present situation is mind-bending. I’ll just highlight the last two paras:

     The neoliberal revolution aimed to restore the supremacy of capital after its twentieth-century subjugation by nation-states, and it has succeeded to an astonishing degree. As states compete and collude with gargantuan new private powers, a new political world arises. The principle of labor, which dominated the twentieth century—producing the industrious, democratic society we have come to regard, erroneously, as the norm—is once again being supplanted by a principle of property, the implications and consequences of which we know only too well from our history books.

     The real political battle in America today is not between a “liberal” left and a “fascist” right. It is between the people and a grandiose private system of social, economic, and political management that has the power to bring to an end the democratic certainties on which Americans have come to rely. If we wish to preserve those certainties, we will have to do a lot more than remove Donald Trump.

186. From “The Guardian”

     President-elect Joe Biden has been confirmed as the winner of Georgia, after the state conducted a hand recount.

187. Mr A, as a Master Pedant, I’m sure you object to the misuse of “ President-elect “ in that quote.

188. Jumpy: “The US badly needs a review of how their alleged electoral system works and ways of avoiding bias.
     How so ?”
     I can see a number of problems with the US system and the way it has been implemented. For example:
     1. Voting isn’t compulsory. As a result Jim crow laws and other methods have been used to discourage some groups such as Afro Americans from voting.
     2. The states run the elections and sometimes do so in ways that are biased. For example, voting facilities in areas expected to vote against the wishes of the state government can be second rate. For example, GW Bush won because the voting equipment in some areas of Florida were second rate. (think hanging tags.) In this election the Republican governor of Texas cut the number of places where early ballots could be handed in to one for Houston (Population 7 million!)
     3. There is no preference voting in the presidential election. (An equivalent is available for some other elections.) Means people like me couldn’t vote Green if want to have a say in whether Dem or GOP win.)
     4. Each states delegates to the electoral college is winner takes all rather than being proportional to votes received. Makes the whole process vulnerable to the vagaries of a close vote in a large state.
     5. Two of the last 3 presidents beat the candidate who got the most votes. (Suggests something is wrong.)
     6. All the shenanigans tried by Trump underlie the vulnerability of the system.
     The US system is due for a thorough review.

189. Mr J

     I’m not a Master Pedant, though I aspire to the title.
     I have many years of plaguing you and others in this forum and elsewhere, still to put in.

     It’s a bit like accumulating “flying hours” for a pilot.

     I’m trying.
     Very trying.

     Consider my cap doffed to you, young feller-me-lad.
     (Sadly, there is no official Apprenticeship for Master Pedantry. It sort of creeps up on you.)

     Cheerio,

     and have a very happy Inauguration Day next January!

190. As a Master Pedant I would point out to Jumpy that with 306 Electoral College votes Biden is the President-elect unless and until the Republican Party goes against the will of the American people and stages a coup.

     PS: still waiting for the evidence of all the dead people in the swing states voting for just Biden and ignoring the rest of the ballot.

191. Ah zoot

     You have preceded many of us to Mastery.
     Congratulations.

     At the risk of using a very old-fashioned expression, I think you have trumped us !

     Dear oh dear.

     ***
     On the coup.
     In the past mist coups have been planned in secret, gor obvious reasons. This one has been heralded and foretold by the Announcer -In-Chief.

     What if he called a coup and nobody came? ?

     (Borrowed from that 60s phrase “what if they called a war and nobody came?”)

192. most coups….
     for obvious reasons

     Pedants sometimes plague themselves.
     And then go blind.

193. John, some replies in good faith.

     1. Non- compulsory voting is a result of the Founding Fathers emphasis on freedom and the experience of crushing dictates of the Governments of the time.
     2. All the suspect practices are with Dem State officials. Also, Gore held up the process for 37 days in 2000 because he suspected fuckery, it was adjudicated buy the Court process within the Constitution ( wonderful) and only then accepted the loss.
     3. It is totally legit to write in any registered candidate, think Kanye West. I don’t know if a green put their hat in the ring.
     4. It’s for President, just think voting for our Governor General if he/she enacted their powers under the Crown. The US have more levels of elections more often than we do. It’s constantly in election mode it seems.
     5. It was specifically designed to stop the potential tyranny of big States over small being a Federation. Similar to our Senate quota system that the greens have gamed to be undemocratically over represented there. Fair enough.
     6. The shenanigans of the media, Hollywood influencers, uni and college academics political biases, Marxist tendencies of DC swamp bureaucrats and Silicon Valley social media ( CA-D ) are a far bigger ongoing threat to democracy than anything Trump did or said in the last 4 years.

     Just because you may agree with their means to an end doesn’t mean it’s morally or ethically right and not ultimately destructive.

194. Zoot, the Electoral votes have not been voted yet, as is written in the US Constitution. Your not a Master Pedants boot shiners assistants arse wiper yet, keep aspiring upward.

     Mr A, I will enjoy January 20th but not anything to do with US politics, their is a close family birthday and possibly a birth on that date. Either way I’ll still probably/ hopefully be on Xmas holidays still. 🙂

195. Zoot, the Electoral votes have not been voted yet

     They don’t have to be for the President-elect to be acknowledged.
     When they are counted Biden will become the 46th president but until then he is the President-elect just as Trump was the President-elect in 2016 before the states had even finished counting the presidential votes.
     This is a long standing tradition and will only be disrupted if the Biggest Loser (currently holding his breath until he turns purple) manages to convince the Republican Party to mount a coup. As Brian pointed out, the Electoral College is there to prevent the country from becoming a democracy, so it might just work. But until then Biden has won the election in a landslide, just as Trump did four years ago.
     Why didn’t you bring up your spurious argument then?

196. Jumpy: The Greens have 10 federal MP’s. Only two come from Tas. Ditto WA. Qld, SA and NSW have one each and Vic 3. Despite your claims Tas does not give the greens a super boost.
     You are in denial if you refuse to acknowledge that the US system has been distorted for a long time and leaves plenty of scope and examples of undemocratic action and heavy discrimination against people of colour.
     Trump has merely highlighted long standing problems with the US system.

197. Jumpy, your comment @ 6:55pm shows you to be beyond information and reason.

     All the suspect practices are with Dem State officials.

     ????????

     There was “fuckery” going on in Florida in 2000. Fewer voting stations in areas likely to vote for Gore.

     Republican activists stalling their cars in same areas to create traffic jams.

     Even voting on a Tuesday disadvantages the disadvantaged who can’t get time off work.

     There are too many in the US active in politics who don’t believe in one vote one value.

198. Despite your claims Tas does not give the greens a super boost.

     I claimed that ?

     Sorry John, you imagined I did.

     Simply calculate how many votes are needed for an average Senator to get their quota as opposed to a green Senator.

     I agree with Keating on this one, doesn’t mean I think constitutionally there is a crisis.

     But your not crying about that un Democratic outcome of course because it suits your individual wants.

199. To go back to the essay by Rana Dasgupta linked by zoot, Don Watson said last night talking to Phillip Adams that the Republicans are not conservatives, they are reactionaries. Seems they want to take the US back to the 18th century.

     He thinks Biden won’t be able to fix it, because he can’t change the Republicans. Watson thinks it will take a Mitt Romney-like Republican conservative to lead the way back to rational and ethical conservatism.

200. Brian, there has been absentee ballots for a very long time in the US.
     You do know the difference between absentee ballots and postal ballots right ?
     The first isn’t designed to facilitate fuckery.
     What your reply to my comment shows uninformed reasoning.

201. There was “fuckery” going on in Florida in 2000. Fewer voting stations in areas likely to vote for Gore.

     And let us not forget the Brooks Brothers riot – a 100% Republican exercise.

202. Simply calculate how many votes are needed for an average Senator to get their quota as opposed to a green Senator.

     So you’re saying the quota is different for a Greens candidate.
     Care to provide, you know, some E…Vid…Ence?

203. Perhaps Mr J is thinking about how the “last elected Senator” in a State gets elected???

     It would go like this.*

     The first two Coalition Senators and the first Labor Senator were elected goid and proper because their slates received more than enough first prefs to be elected. The next Senator might have more than enough.

     Suppose they all needed X%. They got the X%, good and proper. No question.

     But them Green Senators, whoa! !

     Some of them never got a proper quota (X). Quite a few only got Y or Z [first preferences].

     They snuck in on 2nd or 3rd preferences.

     Since Y and Z are by definition lower than X, it’s gotta pull their average [first preference ] vote down.

     Them Greens are gaming the Senate voting system.

     ******

     Is that how it goes Mr J??

     If so I disagree.
     Preferential voting is a feature rather than a defect. All Parties know it exists and act accordingly. Every Senator duly elected is properly elected. None are fake or worthless.

     Mr Keating’s abusive reference to “unrepresentative swill” was unkind and unwarranted. A similar number of MPs in the HoR arrive there because preferences “get them over the line”. Unrepresentative? Not really.

     *guesswork, speculation; vain attempt to fathom

     Cheerio

204. From “History News Network” online:

     (State legislatures have the power to change the system for choosing electors in future elections, but not to reject an already-conducted election just because they don’t like the result.) Nonetheless, the President is pushing for it. By so far refusing to go along with Trump, Republican state legislators have been standing up for the idea that fair, democratic elections are more important than any individual president. If Shirkey and Chatfield are reconsidering that view, they are playing with the possibility of throwing out the results of a free and fair election. That’s not something that the system comes back from easily.

205. Andrew Romano told Indira Naidoo last night that Trump is spending his time playing golf and Tweeting, while Guiliani is putting up failed legal attempts to change the election.

     Th latest is that Michigan legislators have been invited to the Whitehouse, where they will be asked to ignore the 150,000 majority for Biden.

     Biden is saying they know they’ve lost, and it is not for him to speculate on Trump’s motivation. However, he is establishing a legacy of the worst POTUS ever.

     Romano’s theory is that Trump is trying to monetise the loss by maintaining the rage in his base, establishing a permanent sense of outrage, then probably starting up his own TV channel.

206. Our thoughts and prayers must now be with Donald Trump Jr, who has been infected with some kind of ordinary ‘flu that is practically non-existent and completely invisible and you can’t protect yourself from, and did I mention I should fire Dr Fauci?

     Blahblahblahblahblah

     Twit
     Twit
     Twit

     not even an “upper class twit” (Pythons, 1970s)

     you can judge a fellow by the lawyers he hires

     Blahblahblahblah

     the fellow judges aren’t very impressed by the fatuity placed before them

     Blahblahblah….

207. Jumpy: “Simply calculate how many votes are needed for an average Senator to get their quota as opposed to a green Senator.”
     The Greens have 9 senators which equals 11.8%. They got this with 10.2 % of the Senate vote for 2019. Doesn’t seem unreasonable.
     By contrast, the Greens got only one MP in the lower house (0.07%of members) despite getting 10.4% of the vote. They would have got at least 15 lower house members if we had a fair system where % of seats was at least the same as % of primary vote.
     Glad to see your logic supports a fairer system that would give the Greens their fair share??
     The US is not the only place with an unfair way of calculating the number of MP’s each party gets.

208. Jumpy: Just in said: “Despite president-elect Joe Biden having been projected to win more than enough electoral votes to be inaugurated as the next US president in January, Mr Trump’s legal team is resting its hopes on getting Republican-controlled legislatures in battleground states won by Mr Biden to set aside the results and declare Mr Trump the winner.” https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-21/georgia-certifies-election-results-challenges-remain-us-states/12907306
     Overruling the voters would not be good demonstration of a healthy democracy, particularly if it is the President who is driving this approach.

209. John, it’s very difficult to discuss elections with you when you flip from Primary vote to Preference votes to suit the moment.

     Add up what each green Senator needed to reach their individual States quota combined ( I have 796,626 total votes [ AEC]) to get 7 Senators.

     That would be 1.2 NSW Senator requirement.
     Or 1.5 Vic Senators or 1.9 QLD Senators or 3.8 WA Senators or 5 SA or 15.8 Tas Senators.

     That’s fundamentally undemocratic representation.

     But I’m not bitching about one undemocratic system and supporting another because both were designed that way because both the US and Australia happen to be ( amongst other things) Constitutional Federations of States, not pure democratic Nations.

     I accept both as fair under the circumstances and let the cards fall where they may after the Constitutional process has been followed.

     Either that or I piss off to somewhere else more in line with my principles to be consistent, not flip flop.

210. John
     I’m ok with Biden being President if that’s the final Constitutional result, or Trump.

     What I’m not ok with is the same people shouting for the last 4 years about “ Not My President “ or “ Illegitimate President “ and “ 2016 Election was Rigged by Russians “ now saying “ Don’t Question the Election Result!!!”

     Especially when both Reps and Dems pre-announced fuckery would definitely happen and Biden said he had the best voter fraud organisation ever. What the hell do you expect?

211. What I’m not ok with is the same people shouting for the last 4 years about “ Not My President “ or “ Illegitimate President “ and “ 2016 Election was Rigged by Russians “ now saying “ Don’t Question the Election Result!!!”

     Then I suggest you take it up with those people, whoever they are, rather than spouting BS on this forum about dead people voting (in their millions?).

212. Zoot, I’m not engaging your Twitter like trolling today, ok ?
     John can think, so I’ll spend conversational time with him, not you, if he’s in the mood to do so.

213. I see that I misunderstood your intent, Mr J.

     You object to the States’ having equal numbers of Senators, though differing populations.

     That’s why they call it The States’ House. It was a feature built in at Federation. To “protect” smaller States. Directly copying the US pattern.

     Seems fair to me, as long as the governing Party or Coalition is always formed in the HoR.

214. Jumpy: When it comes to MP’s I am in favour in the MP’s having weighted votes that take account of the number of votes received by the MP or the party. Means you don’t have to be quite so fussy about electoral boundaries and you have the option of having more MP’s than the current system allows for small states or isolated areas. (I used to live in Kalgoorlie federal electorate. One MP had to cover almost all of WA.))
     I don’t agree with systems that have more MP’s per head for small population states compared with larger states unless the MP votes are weighted. Perhaps we should weight senator votes?

215. Mr A

     You object to the States’ having equal numbers of Senators, though differing populations.

     No, I’m saying it’s justifiable even though undemocratic under the current working situation.

     I’m only “ conservative “ in a sense that “ mostly working institutions “ need incremental change not radical “ progressive “ revolutionary tearing apart and replacement of some perceived opposite.

     Give the current process the time allowed, keep calm and carry on with improvements at an individual level. That way the collective of individuals benefits most.

216. Edward Norton (on twitter) has something to say:

     I’m no political pundit but I grew up w a dad who was a federal prosecutor & he taught me a lot & I’ve also sat a fair amount of poker w serious players & l’ll say this: I do not think Trump is trying to ‘make his base happy’ or ‘laying the groundwork for his own network’ or that ‘chaos is what he loves’. The core of it is that he knows he’s in deep, multi-dimensional legal jeopardy & this defines his every action.
     We’re seeing
     1) a tactical delay of the transition to buy time for coverup & evidence suppression
     2) above all, a desperate endgame which is to create enough chaos & anxiety about peaceful transfer of power, & fear of irreparable damage to the system, that he can cut a Nixon-style deal in exchange for finally conceding.
     But he doesn’t have the cards. His bluff after ‘the flop’ has been called in court His ‘turn card’ bluff will be an escalation & his ‘River card’ bluff could be really ugly. But they have to be called. We cannot let this mobster bully the USA into a deal to save his ass by threatening our democracy. THAT is his play. But he’s got junk in his hand. So call him.
     I will allow that he’s also a whiny, sulky, petulant, Grinchy, vindictive little 10-ply-super-soft bitch who no doubt is just throwing a wicked pout fest & trying to give a tiny-hand middle finger to the whole country for pure spite, without a single thought for the dead & dying. But his contemptible, treasonous, seditious assault on the stability of our political compact isn’t about 2024, personal enrichment or anything else other than trying to use chaos & threat to the foundation of the system as leverage to trade for a safe exit.
     Call. His. Bluff.

217. 100% playing the man, no mention of a ball, any ball at all.

     I can understand your interest in such shallow, vindictive nothingness.

218. I’ve been doing some work this afternoon and listening to the BBC via NewsRadio.

     They have reported about 15 times that the Michigan legislators went to Washington, explained to the Trumpsters that Biden won the election in a fair count, and then on returning announced that they will be certifying Biden’s win in Michigan on Monday.

     This ABC article gets to it towards the bottom.

     Trump is toast.

     I did hear that Giuliani is alleging a conspiracy involving Hillary Clinton and Venezuela.

     I think Biden is playing it well in letting matters take their course and not trying to force it.

     Jumpy, there was always an issue of attempted Russian interference, but it was more about fake news storms as I remember it.

     My biggest issue was with Jim Comey announcing an FBI investigation into Hillary’s emails.

     I think that changed the course of history.

     Now it seems his missus told him not to do it:

     “You can’t do this this close to the election. You can’t do this to a candidate,” she told her husband, according to Schmidt.

     “I am screwed no matter what happens. If I disclose this, I’m screwed. If I don’t disclose this, I’m screwed,” the FBI director told her.

     If he was screwed any way, then why do it?

     He was thinking too much about himself.

219. 100% playing the man, no mention of a ball, any ball at all.

     The ball includes, but is not restricted to, all those millions of dead people who voted in the swing states and the clown car currently being driven by Rudy Giuliani. Do you get some sort of perverse thrill out of pretending to be stupid, or are you really that clueless?

220. Brian, Comey should have charged Hillary when he announced she broke several laws but refused to.

     It wasn’t the “ young and naive “ defence but pretty close. He admitted she broke the law but decided not to prosecute for some reason.
     That was when he condemned himself.

221. Brian, Comey should have charged Hillary when he announced she broke several laws but refused to.

     What laws were they and when did he announce she had broken them?
     Wikipedia only records that

     On July 5, 2016, Comey announced the FBI’s recommendation that the United States Department of Justice file no criminal charges relating to the Hillary Clinton email controversy.

     The case was reopened after the discovery of emails on Weiner’s computer but

     … on November 6, 2016, Comey wrote in a second letter to Congress that “Based on our review, we have not changed our conclusions that we expressed in July”.

     What is Wikipedia hiding?

222. Mr J

     I don’t agree that the Senate representation is “undemocratic”.

     Here are some possibilities, none of which I support, which would be undemocratic:
     Senators appointed for life by the PM
     Senators selected by lottery from a pool of willing volunteers
     Senators drawn only from the judiciary, the nobility, the engineers or the captains of industry

     Every one of those is undemocratic because the citizens didn’t directly vote on candidates standing in a free and fair election.

     It seems you require a majority of the national vote to approve. John D has explained many times why regions should be given a fair chance of being represented. Brian and others have commented that Party pre-selection methods seem to exclude candidates from a wide range of jobs and professions turning up in Canberra.

     Do we want “representatives” who overall are fairly “representative (in the statistical sense) if the people”.

     An acid comment decades ago bemoaned the (alleged) fact that once upon a time the Labor Party membership included “the cream of the working class” but was now dominated by “the dregs of the middle class”.

     Then there’s the dregs of affiliated Union officials.
     Branch-stacking [ see M. Turnbull become an MHR; see three Ministerial resignations in Victoria recently].

     Look up nomenklatura.
     It’s a nasty business, this politics caper.

223. Mr A, I’m an advocate of Sortition for the Senate rather than party machine picks.
     Opt in obviously.
     That would be more “ representative “ than we have now I believe.

224. Jumpy, Comey was never going to charge Clinton, because he says there was never any reason too. You didn’t read the link.

     Comey writes: “Assuming, as nearly everyone did, that Hillary Clinton would be elected president of the United States in less than two weeks, what would happen to the FBI, the justice department or her own presidency if it later was revealed, after the fact, that she still was the subject of an FBI investigation?”

     Then:

     “Hindsight is always helpful, and if I had to do it over again, I would do some things differently,” he writes.
     Fight to vote: sign up for our US election newsletter
     Read more

     Clinton has said Comey “forever changed history” with his election interventions. Comey has testified that it makes him “mildly nauseous to think we might have had some impact on the election”.

     Yet in his book, Comey admits that at the July 2016 news conference, in which he spoke for more than 10 minutes about Clinton’s poor email practices before announcing that the FBI would not recommend that she be prosecuted, he might have buried the lede.
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     “I would avoid the ‘Seacresting’ mistake by saying at the beginning of my statement that we weren’t recommending charges,” he writes. “At the time, I thought there was a risk people wouldn’t listen carefully after the headline, but looking back, the risk of confusion from me delaying the conclusion was greater.”

     He continues: “More important, I would have tried to find a better way to describe Secretary Clinton’s conduct … my use of ‘extremely careless’ naturally sounded to many ears like the statutory language – ‘grossly negligent’ – even though thoughtful lawyers could see why it wasn’t the same.”

     Unfortunately, there were unthoughtful lawyers, not to mention the media and the voters.

225. And would it be sortition with equal numbers of Senators from each State (as now existing)?

     Or would you drastically overhaul the Federation also?

226. A Pennsylvania Judge has delivered a scathing judgement on a case put forward by the T campaign.

227. Brian

     I know it’s a deadly serious matter and will be discussed long and hard, but I still find childish humour in the cause of the later Comey letter yo Congress.

     Mr Wiener, investigated for sending lewd selfies to an underage girl; forced to resign from Congress; had Hillary emails on the offending laptop, etc. .

     Mr Wiener.
     You just cannot make this stuff up.
     In the same campaign where the Republican nominee is broadcast to the world, boasting about grabbing ladies by the cat.

228. Pedant alert!
     His name is Anthony Weiner, not “Wiener”.

229. Oh Master, you have confirmed your mastery.
     Hosannas* of praise and gratitude.

     Now, pray tell……

     Does Wiener get pronunciated “weener”
     And does Weiner get pronunciated “whiner” or “winer”?

     “Anthony was a great winer of women, but never a winner.”

     (*next you’ll be telling us it’s ‘hosannahs’)

230. Excellent question, and according to Wikipedia the pronunciation is “weener”.
     I am flummoxed by the Yankee pronunciation of “ei”
     Having failed German at secondary school I was always under the impression that it was pronounced “eye”, but in the land of the free there seems to be no consistency whatsoever. Harvey Weinstein’s name is pronounced “winesteen” but they don’t call the famous scientist Albert “Inesteen”.
     No wonder they’re in a mess.

231. Brian, I did read most of them. Comey concluded that Hillary breaking Federal laws was “extremely reckless “.
     Despite being an accomplished lawyer and FLOTUS she set up an illegal server in a cupboard, whoops !!
     And then purposely bleaching that same server, whoops again!!
     Then lied under oath, another whoops!!

     I wonder if I were to commit thousands of felonies that Comey would just dismiss it as “ extremely reckless “, on ya way….

     Just like Gillards “ young and naive “ defence as a partner in a law firm in her 30s.

232. zoot, with American visitors once years ago I pronounced an Italian surname (of a friend of theirs) the Italian way, but was corrected by the visitors: “We’re American!”

     There’s just no predicting…..

233. And possibly Germans would say Vine Stine
     (or “creep”)

     How do you go saying

     Reess Ling

     for Riesling?

234. The rule I learnt was ie = “ee” and ei =”eye”
     Most used when trying to apply: I before E except after C (when the sound is ee)

235. Comey concluded that Hillary breaking Federal laws was “extremely reckless “.

     You persist in misrepresenting Comey.
     He actually used the term “extremely careless” as noted in Brian’s comment to which you are responding.
     Your comprehension is appallingly inadequate.

236. Mr Fish, too good not to share.

237. The pronunciation rule in German is that it follows the second letter in the diphthong.

     So “Wiener” would be ‘veener’ and “Weiner” would be ‘viner’.

     No exceptions!

     Please note that “wine” is “Wein”, so “Wiener” would be a bit against the grain for a surname, except the “Wien” is “Vienna” giving us “Wiener schnitzel” or “Wienerschnitzel” if you are in Switzerland.

238. Oh, “ extremely careless “ was the get out of jail quote, my mistake.

     In any event, Comey was being political rather than doing his job as an enforcer of the law.

     If she had got up she’d have been impeached. Biden will no doubt face impeachment but the Reps may hesitate hard in putting Harris in before she inevitably will depose Biden.

239. Oh, “ extremely careless “ was the get out of jail quote, my mistake.

     Err, no! The “get out of jail quote” was the FBI’s recommendation that the United States Department of Justice file no criminal charges.

     Biden will no doubt face impeachment but the Reps may hesitate hard in putting Harris in before she inevitably will depose Biden.

     What on earth are you jabbering about with this. Please put it into English (Google translate is your friend).

240. Here’s a Republican Senator who hasn’t got Jumpy’s message.

     I congratulate President-elect Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris on their victory. They are both dedicated public servants and I will be praying for them and for our country. Unsurprisingly, I have significant policy disagreements with the President-elect.

241. Hahaha, your going to have to look beyond your Marxist media bubble zoot to find out.
     Go learn to fish, I’m not giving you any more.

242. Que?

243. Speaking of Wien (Vienna) as we were, my favourite sentimental song of that town is
     Wien, Wien, nur du allein

     Wien, Wien only you alone……

     There’s a good Birgit Nilsson version on the Youtube.

     And if I may stray into the Latin for a moment, Julius the Kaiser is quoted as saying “I came, I saw, I conquered “. It has a mocking version.

     Latin veni, vidi, vici

     Mock Weenie, weedy, weaky

     * * * * *

     Which brings us back to Anthony, the weaky.
     (Not Mark Anthony: “Friends, Romans, countrymen! Send me your selfies!”)

244. zoot, Jumpy is using the Sidney Powell “legal argument”. Powell .. “I’ve got so much evidence it is being fire hosed in” . The whole World .. “Please show us the evidence”! Powell .. “oh I can’t do that, I can’t divulge the information”!

     In other words, the whole “businessman Trump equals good government” myth is exposed for its utter failure, and the Republican extortion machine, yes extortion, siphoning public funds (mostly printed money) to the .1% and corporations through banks and the stock market is about to collapse. Naturally they are floundering and desperate to save face so all they have is the power of the big lie, the con.

     What Jumpy is expressing there is the minion level face saver package. “we have the evidence to impeach them all, but we can’t show anyone”.

245. You know what, I’m absolutely wrong.
     The 2016 US election was stolen by Trump, Putin and his Facebook bots and Trump ( somehow accidentally ) made sure the 2020 election was as pure as newly driven snow.

     My mistake, most humble apologies.

     To hell with the US Constitution, the media get to decide the President Elect.

246. To hell with the US Constitution, the media get to decide the President Elect.

     Wrong again.
     The people who vote in the election decide who is the president-elect. The media simply report the will of the people.
     And sometimes they get it wrong – “Dewey defeats Truman” anyone? – but not in 2016 or 2020.
     It’s a little old, but this might help.

247. Nope the Electoral College decides the President Elect, then the Senate confirms the President.
     Please read the US Constitution before embarrassing yourself even further zoot.

     Facts don’t care about your feelings.

248. Jumpy, I feel your pain.

249. But now you just look pathetic.

250. Of course, it would help your case if your beloved Donald J had some actual voting irregularities to complain about. That would add a veneer of respectability to your other wise ludicrous and unconvincing stance.

251. Zoot, great article, but yes, it was published on 11 November.

     I heard today that 34 legal cases put up by the Trumpsters have been thrown out, the one just rejected in Pennsylvania with derision by the judge.

252. This is priceless. Republican “ethics” ??

     “It seems likely that this inexperience and inability to play the game properly was what doomed Powell. Former New Jersey governor Chris Christie, who has long advised Trump, disparaged her specifically during an appearance on “This Week” on Sunday.
     “Sidney Powell accusing Governor Brian Kemp of a crime on television yet being unwilling to go on TV and defend and lay out the evidence that she supposedly has, this is outrageous conduct,” Christie said. He described the legal team broadly as a “national embarrassment.”
     It’s hard to see how that assessment stops at Powell. Giuliani’s behavior and claims haven’t been much different. But he has decades of ties to Republican officials including the president and years of experience navigating conservative media. You can think of Giuliani as being the Fox News of Trump’s legal team while Powell was the One America News: the former being an institution used to toeing the expected lines of believability, versus an upstart unburdened by rationality. Even Powell’s attacks on Republican leaders hew to that dichotomy.“

     How dare some one accuse a Republican of a crime even if he is filth covered Kemp, Governor of Georgia.

253. Thanks for that, Jumpy, apology accepted.

     However. “made sure the 2020 election was as pure as newly driven snow”,…. not quite right.

     You’ve got to remember the GOP’s 29 ways to rig an election

     https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/10/29-ways-trump-and-the-gop-are-making-it-harder-to-vote/

     Someone will make a song out of it.

     Some actual voter fraud would have provided some interest, but there was none. It usually goes against Republicans when its found out, so it seems their voters behaved themselves too.

254. Mr J

     You might as well say that the Australian Governor General appoints (“decides”) the Australian PM; which is a formal step.

     This would ignore the election campaign, the casting of votes, the vote counting by the AEC, the declarations of polls in each HoR electorate, the formation of a HoR majority by a Party or Coalition or looser arrangement…..

     And still, the subsequent possibility that the PM invited by the GG could lose her position through a Parlt vote of no confidence by the MPs elected by the voters.

     However flawed, both the US and Australia have electoral systems. Electoral = based on elections.

     Mandate = conferred by the electors

     Electoral fraud: should be guarded against by robust precautions; investigated and prosecuted if detected.

255. This is from “The Oz” via their US correspondent Cameron Stewart:

     “Donald Trump has accepted the formal transition process for Joe Biden’s administration needs to move forward but says he will continue to fight to overturn the election result.

     Mr Trump was commenting after the head of General Services Administration, Emily Murphy, chose to effectively recognise Joe Biden as the winner of the election and begin the formal transition process.

     Ms Murphy, a Trump appointment, had been the subject of withering criticism from Democrats for delaying her assessment that Mr Biden was the president-elect.

     Her decision to recognise his expected victory means Mr Biden’s team will have access to funding, office space, intelligence briefings and agency meetings required to prepare for him assuming the presidency in January.

     Ms Murphy said that she came to the decision “because of recent developments involving legal challenges and certifications of election results.”

     “I take this role seriously and, because of recent developments involving legal challenges and certifications of election results, am transmitting this letter today to make those resources and services available to you,” Ms Murphy said in the letter to Mr Biden. ”

     Meanwhile, a Mr Trump currently residing in Pennsylvania Avenue, wants to ‘keep up the good fight’.

256. Murphy was certainly on board with the prospect of a Coup d’Dem’, an affront to constitutional government, and so deserves no praise for finally realising that the “jig is up” and is reluctantly doing her job.

257. According to Bruce Shapiro, Ms Murphy realised after the Michigan certification and the Federal Court judge throwing out the Pennsylvania Giuliani ‘challenge’ that the game was up and Trump was not going to steal the election.

     Trump’s tweet followed, but he is still calling for donations to fight the fight.

     She was also under heavy pressure from a Congressional committee. She had put off meeting with them for a week, but she was running out of rope and would have to account for herself.

258. How does a President get away with proclaiming repeatedly, for months on end, that the electoral system is corruptible, damaged, likely to be rigged, etc. and then claim widespread fraud without credible Ev-Id-Ence.

     It turns out, this time, it was a multitude of Courts with Judges doing their (legal, not partisan) duty, that have been a bulwark of rationality and restraint.

     Separation of powers: essential.
     Electoral system: much in need of improvement.

259. bilb2

     It’s coup d’état, Monsieur

     Coo Day Tar

     Trouble was, The Donald lacked any
     DATA…. For his Coo
     Day Tar.

     au revoir, mon ami
     L’Ambi

260. There has been much favorable comment on Biden’s selections for his new team.

     I believe that he has to make 4,000 appointments during this period, but the snag is that around 1,200 of them are subject to Senate review.

     The republicans have indicated that they are not going to pass any serious lefties, to preserve the country from socialism.

     Just how this is going to work out will be of interest, but there is little doubt that Biden would be making selections with this in mind, to the frustration of the more progressive elements of his party.

261. Brian: “The republicans have indicated that they are not going to pass any serious lefties, to preserve the country from socialism.
     Just how this is going to work out will be of interest, but there is little doubt that Biden would be making selections with this in mind, to the frustration of the more progressive elements of his party.”
     Hard to say if all the talk by the Republicans re restricting Biden’s freedom to appoint people and blocking anything that is even mildly leftish will affect the results of the upcoming senate run-offs. During the Obama period the Republicans became more disciplined when it came to blocking what Obama was able to do. Some Republican senators may want a return to a system that gave them more independence. They may also want a senate leader that is less rigid.

262. John, Bruce Shapiro told Phillip Adams the GOP was showing signs of being deeply riven, with a bunch of them inclined to act sensibly and rationally, whereas Pence, Rubio et al were circling the wagons around Trump and playing to the 70 million who voted for him.

263. Trump Says He Will Leave White House if Electoral College Chooses Biden.

     (Headline in Nine newspspers)

     There was a time when that headline would not have been imaginable.

264. And I don’t mean because “President Trump” would have been inconceivable.

     (Did his mother ever call out down thehallway, “Donald, open the foor and come out of your room! ! It sounded like you were pardoning yourself in there!!”)

265. open the door

266. Mr A

     There was a time when that headline would not have been imaginable.

     There was a time the media(D) didn’t make up out of thin air that a President would refuse to leave if he/she lost the election and required physical removal by the Secret Service or the Military or some such nonsense.

     Those headlines were always click bait BS for the rabid left to bathe in.

267. Jumpy: “Those headlines were always click bait BS for the rabid left to bathe in.” Trump’s disruption of convention, use of porkies and negotiating strategies make some of us wonder what he is going to do at times.

268. John, maybe some of the US conventions need disruption, all politicians lie and business strategies may be more optimal than traditional political ones.

     I’m convinced that Trump even getting close in the face of total biased institutions like the media (D), academia (D), facechook(D), Twitter (D), google (D), Hollywood (D) and most of the crime ridden Democrat cities is a miracle and not quite yet reason to write the US off as a failed model and let China be the model to aspire to.

269. business strategies may be more optimal than traditional political ones.

     That’s certainly true when it comes to the pandemic. What an overwhelming success it’s been.
     And I think I speak on behalf of everyone here when I thank Jumpy for his sterling service in keeping us up to date with the latest loony right talking points direct from the USA.
     Well done sir!

270. Mr J,

     Do you think any politician or indeed any President, should be immune from prosecution after they leave office?

     Would you support any act by Pres Trump along the lines of “pardoning himself”?

     (Or is that another figment of the overwrought imaginations of lefty lawyers??)

271. Mr A, what crimes, actual crimes has Trump committed that Biden hasn’t?

     The entire media ( D) and deep blue Silicon Valley ( CA, D) suppressed the entire Hunter laptop thing while promoting every unverified rumour about Trump.

     That’s not a level playing field and everyone knows it, even zoot.

272. Let’s see if the ABC do a specific segment on the online “ news “ to “ Bidens America “ or they just drop the scrutiny like they did with the “ Promise Tracker “ after they helped oust Abbott for Turncoat.

273. what crimes, actual crimes has Trump committed that Biden hasn’t?

     When did Biden extort a foreign govt or claim fraudulent tax deductions?

274. And a PS: When were Biden and his family banned from running any charity because they were not fit and proper?

275. And does Biden fear prosecution when his term as President finishes?

276. Goodness, zoot battles claims of media bullshiting with media bullshit.
     There is no self awareness on Planet Zootistan.

277. Jumpy: Pictures with sound of Trump talking sometimes set off my bullshit detector. Or are these fake too?
     What do you specifically think he did that was good stuff?

278. Goodness, zoot battles claims of media bullshiting with media bullshit.

     You have supplied no E…Vid…Ence of any bullshitting.

     Let me introduce you to Hitchens’s Razor.
     “The burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it.”
     Or, more pithily,

     What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

279. In fact, I have no hesitation in labeling your assertion that dead people voted for Biden (and not down ballot, but only in the swing states) as bullshit of the highest quality. I bet your garden has the best roses in the street – or is it strawberries in your case?

280. The photo is priceless. (Has he already stolen the Resolute desk?)

281. I don’t see anything in that photo, zoot.

     That is obviously Donny’s colouring in desk. Just sharpies I hear you say? Donny only works in Black and White, as you know.

282. Mr J.

     You wrote:

     Mr A, what crimes, actual crimes has Trump committed that Biden hasn’t?

     That’s actually for investigators to figure out. Then prosecutors to bring to Courts with Ev-Id-Ence, then Judges or juries to decide.

     I have no inside knowledge. I’ve never worked for the man, or had an invoice unpaid by him.

     (But I hear that Gerald Ford’s pardon for Mr Nixon was associated with an immediate drop in his popularity; some believe it cost Mr Ford the Presidency when he faced election.)

283. Trump crime hors d’oeuvres, https://www.acslaw.org/projects/the-presidential-investigation-education-project/possible-federal-and-state-crimes/

     The complete list has some 800 items.

     I am looking for a similar list for Biden. Not finding it so far.

284. Oh, a compendium of media(D) articles BilB, colour me convinced.
     And don’t bother looking for the same on Biden, any that are written are buried by Big Silicone Valley (D) Corporation algorithms and Big media(D) bias.

     Take comfort in the taylor made ignorance machines whilst you can, it’s gunna get rough soon.

     I wish you and yours the best.

285. Who is taylor?
     Is she a tailor?

     What is “rough “? Mr Jump.
     Court cases?
     Militias on the march?
     New copiers of Timothy McVeigh?

     Do you wish that republic to move into open warfare, or do you merely predict that it will?

286. Jumpy, you obviously have impeccable sources of information unblemished by any partisan motives while we are limited to media reports. We keep waiting for you to share your privileged information which would inarguably open our eyes, but so far you have come up with nothing, nada, zilch, zero.
     Where is the E…Vid…Ence you demand from others?

287. Jumpy: “Take comfort in the taylor made ignorance machines whilst you can, it’s gunna get rough soon.”
     Are you suggesting that Putin will come to the rescue of his puppet T? OR????

288. The clown car trundles on:
     LOS ANGELES (Reuters) – A recount in Wisconsin’s largest county demanded by Republican President Donald Trump’s election campaign ended Friday with Democratic President-elect Joe Biden gaining votes.
     After the recount in Milwaukee County, Biden had a net gain of 132 votes, out of nearly 460,000 cast. Overall, Biden gained 257 votes to Trump’s 125.

     [This, of course, is fake news. Jumpy has the true story at his fingertips and he’ll post it here any moment now.]

289. zoot,
     that story also bears out the judgement (based on past experience of US recounts), that the corrected tallies vary by relatively small amounts, from the tallies originally made.

     Which seems to indicate a fairly good accuracy and lack of error in their procedures. As you could expect if a sophisticated and ‘advanced’ state.

     In some ways, the hoarse shouts of “vote rigging! ” are an attempt to drag the republic back to a more lawless time. Do they hanker for shootouts in the dusty msin street, a la Hollywood Wild West?? (Real men bluster and shoot ’em all up.)

290. In some ways, the hoarse shouts of “vote rigging! ” are an attempt to drag the republic back to a more lawless time.

     Like after the “ Wussia, Wussia, Wussia!!!” conspiracy theory, starting in 2016 by Democrats, did ?

     Somehow, some folk think Putin and his Facebook bots stole the 16 election, but at the same time it’s impossible that State and local Dem activists could influence an election for Beijing Biden through vote manufacturing in 2020.

     I’m saying both were possibly and should be equally investigated by media(D) and the Court.

     That won’t happen and it’s an stain on any sophisticated advance state.

291. Interesting analysis of how social media infects the political process.

292. In more bad news for Jumpy

     The PA lawsuit brought on by Mike Kelly, Sean Parnell, and a host of others—who claimed the election was unconstitutional because of the mail-in voting (Article 77) and were asking the court to invalidate the election certification—has been DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE by the PA Supreme Court because of the Laches Doctrine. The court says the plaintiffs waited too long to file this lawsuit.

     The judgement is here.
     [Note for our correspondent on planet Mackay, that is not a media distortion of the real situation.]

293. Zoot, how is it bad news for me, I want the judicial process to be followed to whatever result transpires ?

     Is it good news for you when it isn’t ?

     Consider your answer in light of the SCOTUS make up please. ( Not “ stacked “ that has a totally different definition )

294. Our Alexander.
     Remember Alexander Downing?
     He had a small hand in passing on rumours of Russian meddling, Mr J.

     Is Alexander Downing a Democrat? ?

295. Zoot, how is it bad news for me,

     On three counts:
     One more indication that there was no significant fuckery in the presidential voting.
     One more verification that your assertion of millions of dead people voting is complete bullshit.
     Proof yet again that your beloved Donald J Trump lost the election – bigly.

296. Mr A, Downer was wrong on many issues.

     You’re better than that.

     Would it help if I said “ C’mon Man ! “ a few times ?

     Seems to work for Beijing Biden.

297. Well done zoot, editing my question so you don’t answer. You’re an expert in that.
     Each smile you get from pushing “ Post Comment “ results in a bigger smile on my face seeing your Pyrrhic idiocy.

     Carry on, please.

298. Jumpy, it appears you don’t know the actual meaning of “pyrrhic”. Did you look it up or did you just trust your tenuous grip on the English language?
     And since you insist:

     how is it bad news for me, I want the judicial process to be followed to whatever result transpires ?

     Following my part reply at 6:52 pm please add the following:
     And you lie. You have made it abundantly clear on this thread that the last thing you want is the judicial process to affirm Trump’s overwhelming defeat. What you really want is the result of the election overturned, which explains your otherwise ridiculous assertions that the media is somehow responsible for the court decisions which (so far) have not gone the way you want.

299. Mr J,
     you appeared to be blaming all criticism of Pres Trump, Mr Putin etc on Democrat liars.

     I was merely pointing out that scepticism on the Russia/Trump question went a little further.

     I’m not a Downer fan, but I don’t believe he was or is a tool of the US Democrat Party.

     Politics is a funny old game, rarely ‘black and white’.
     International politics too.

300. Aw shucks, the new guy is just a regular kinda guy in his seventies, plays around with his dawg*

     American president-elect Joe Biden has fractured his right foot after slipping while playing with his dog Major.

     The injury was discovered in a scan on Sunday and will likely require him to wear a boot for several weeks, his doctor said.

     Biden suffered the injury on Saturday and visited an orthopedist in Newark, Delaware, on Sunday afternoon, his office said.

     *Seem to recall that other guy preferred pussy-cats.

301. Just one of a torrent of puff pieces we’ll get about the presumptive President Elect ( not actual yet ).

     Trump didn’t get a honeymoon period from the media (D) but Beijing Biden’s will continue its 47 year run till he dies.

     That’s your trusted sources for ya.

302. In reply to your earlier comment Mr A, yes, politics is a funny old game.

     News, journalism and media should not be the partisan game it’s turned into, especially in the mainstream and publicly funded “ services”.

303. Jumpy, we’ve already had criticisms of Biden from the more progressive wing of his own party. I know, because, funnily enough, the media report the stuff.

304. Well, for my part, Mr J, I trust Australia’s ABC and Britain’s’s BBC far less than once I did.

     And I think it’s a very weak excuse for partisanship to say that “the ABC should lean a little Left because Murdoch leans Right.”

     Piffle and Poppycock!!

305. Brian, oh your talking about criticism from the media (D) that Beijing Biden is not far left enough.

     That kinda, sorta makes my point there.

306. “criticisms of Biden from the more progressive wing of his own party” != “criticism from the media”

307. Mr A, agreed.
     There is a plethora of private outlets both online and in paleo-media, they can and often do state their leanings with their charters or mission statements.

     Taxpayer “ services “ lose their legitimacy if they become partisan.
     Imagine any other Government “ service “ that you would tolerate if it only hired conservatives and focused on serving them over “ liberals”. It’d be shut down in a heartbeat and I’d be happy about that.

308. Jumpy, to help all of us, what is the non-partisan news organisation you trust to provide you with unbiased, objective reporting?

309. Jumpy, what zoot said @ 7:41 PM.

310. Zoot, there are none, but there should be if we’re all paying for it out of compulsion. ( ie, don’t pay and eventually a person with a gun turns up )

     Brian, the paleo media (D) corporations are only voicing far left criticism of Beijing Biden and suppressing conservatives, so are the deep blue Californian Silicone Valley Mega cooperations. Wall Street donated to him overwhelmingly.

     Ask yourself why, that’s all I ask.

311. Zoot, there are none,

     So, from where did you get your information about dead people voting? What was the source of your assertion that in swing states votes were only cast in the presidential contest and not down ballot? Are you in contact with some deep throat in the USA?

312. This is nice to see, honour amongst thieves

     https://youtu.be/eNlRsJb7EAA

     Wall street feeling cheated by Trump.

313. The newspaper tells me that Mr Biden and Ms Harris are now being given access to the President’s Daily Brief.

     Apparently this is a summary of intelligence for the POTUS.

     (This daily briefing features in a book on 9/11 called “The Eleventh Day”, written about 10 years after the dust had settled in New York and Washington; the official Commission had reported; Khalid Sheik Mohamed had been interrogated. The key point, “which President* knew what, when?” before the attacks of 11th Sept. And what did they and their agencies do about the various warnings?)

     *Bill Clinton, George W Bush.

314. Ambi, I have a strong memory that in the handover Clinton warned G W Bush specifically about Al Qaeda, but the Bushites were an arrogant lot who didn’t think much of their predecessors, so the eye was definitely taken off the ball.

     The 9/11 commission was I suspect being quite generous with a faint suggestion that the resolution of the hanging shards in Florida meant that the reduced transition time truncated the opportunity for the proper transmission of information.

315. Key Trump ally Attorney-General William Barr says no evidence of voter fraud found:

     Mr Barr appears to have changed his mind, after probes turned up no evidence to support claims of “substantial” fraud. He said US attorneys and FBI agents had followed up specific complaints – but uncovered nothing that would change the election outcome.

     “To date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election,” he said.

316. Time for Rudy & Jenna (& Jumpy?) to put up or shut up.

317. And you would have to reckon, Brian, that a bloke holding the office of Attorney-General of the US (AGOTUS??) would have access to some top notch legal and investigative staff. So if that’s the conclusion Mr Barr has reached, mebbe it’s time for Melania to have a quiet word with The Donald.

     If that were possible.

     This is starting to look like Richard Nixon, just before his resignation in disgrace, hanging on by a thread with impeachment threatening, seemingly on the edge emotionally; General Haig seconded to ensure no mayhem was unleashed.

318. There’s a bloke calling himself “Jack the Insider” over at The Oz who is giving serious advice that Aussies should not bear Mr Trump’s delusions lest it lead them down into a deep, dark place.

     Jumpy : “Don’t jump!!!”

     Don’t go there.

319. According to the failing NY Times

     President Trump has discussed with advisers whether to grant pre-emptive pardons to his children, to his son-in-law and to his personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani, and talked with Mr. Giuliani about pardoning him as recently as last week, according to two people briefed on the matter.

     It would appear Donnie Two-scoops believes his children (and his lawyer) have committed crimes while in his employ.
     I keep reading how to receive a Presidential pardon one must admit guilt but I don’t see how that can apply to pre-emptive pardons. Then there’s the other point that having been pre-emptively pardoned the kids could go on a crime spree knowing they are already absolved of guilt. WTF?
     Mind you, I think Don Jr, Eric and Javanka would be the gang that couldn’t shoot straight. They have all inherited their father’s incompetence to greater or lesser degree.
     Glad it’s not my circus.

320. Bruce Shapiro told Phillip Adams that Trump had raised $175 million since the election.

     He says that 75% of that has gone on paying off his election campaign debt and setting up his new venture, whatever that is going to be.

321. Crikey!!

     This is from a paper called “The New York Times”:

     President Trump has discussed with advisers whether to grant pre-emptive pardons to his children, to his son-in-law and to his personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani, and talked with Mr. Giuliani about pardoning him as recently as last week, according to two people briefed on the matter.

322. Fake news Ambi, fake news.
     Jumpy will be any any second now to tell us the truth.

323. Yes, it’s only hearsay.

     By the way, to put not only Donald Tanty, but all humans into perspective, this is from me old mate Montaigne:

     Who have persuaded [man] that this admirable moving of heavens vaults, that the eternal light of these lampes so fiercely rowling over his head, that the horror-moving and continuall motion of this infinite vaste ocean were established, and continue so many ages for his commoditie and service? Is it possible to imagine so ridiculous as this miserable and wretched creature, which is not so much as master of himselfe, exposed and subject to offences of all things, and yet dareth call himself Master and Emperor.

     apologies for the old-fashioned language; he tends a bit that way…….

324. Just to give the Jumpies of the world hope and others nightmares Trump hints that he will run again in 2024. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-02/donald-trump-hits-he-will-run-for-president-in-2024/12943398

325. Honestly, I think the GOP will be over Trump by that time, but it might keep the money rolling in for a while.

     I suspect Giuliani knows he’s part of the act, but probably he’s getting paid for his services.

326. I don’t believe presidential candidates are allowed run from inside prison. But given that Il Douche probably won’t do time, he can run on his record in 2024.
     Promises made; Promises kept:
     The border wall has been built – check
     Mexico paid for it – check
     Crooked Hillary has been incarcerated – check
     Obamacare has been repealed and replaced – check
     The only weakness will be his abject failure to tackle the pandemic but I’m sure in four years everyone will have forgotten that.

327. zoot, those most affected by the pandemic will no longer be on the voting rolls, being ex-voters, moved on to the Celestial County, former voters, dropped off the twig, no longer with us, etc.

     Oh hang on, I’m wrong.
     The dead DO vote.
     And golly, turns out they’re ALL of them solid, base, **MAGA** DT voters. And why not? Hell, they weren’t gonna wear masks.

     In a year’s time, will we be observing that DT “has got the DT’s”?

328. DT got to be candidate because of the invasion of the once conservative Republican party by the Tea Party. (The US primary voting system allows this to happen. Voters simply nominate which party they support and are then able to vote in that parties primaries.)
     The US clearly needs major electoral reform.

329. You’d think the major Parties might have reconsidered their Primary system.

     It sounds a bit like Jeremy Corbyn’s ascension to Leader in UK Labour. Suddenly thousands of new members. Was it £5 a pop?

     And he was a sad failure in many ways.
     Currently suspended from Party membership, I think.

330. In theory, primaries are a very democratic approach to picking candidates and the US likes to think of itself as a democratic leader, Primaries might be more democratic if they allowed preference voting but there is still the question of what to do if a party is being infiltrated by “outsiders” like the Tea Party.
     In the Australian system party branches control who is allowed into the party. given the size of most active branches this arrangement gives some protection against radical change of the nature of a party.
     Wouldn’t want the Greens taken over by coal miners would we?

331. I have a thought that DT won’t last long out of the Presidency. Why? Given what he knows, given how he turns on people with zero notice, given how much he knows … more even that Epstein and including much of what Epstein knew ….. , and given how loose Trump is with information and his loyalty to Putin and other dictators, I expect that Trump could develop more than the DT’s ,… he could go the full Epstein, albeit a little less dramatically. Perhaps a more believable heart attack, or stroke. In his sleep.

332. Was that Clinton’s buddy Epstein that you speak of BilB ?
     The same Bill Clinton in this Epstein painting https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/08/clinton-painting.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=1236&h=820&crop=1

333. I’m fascinated with the Republicans urging their constituents to boycott the Georgia run-off election. We know Trump’s affected, but do they all have tertiary syphilis?
     (Of course, for Trump that could be a consequence of hanging out with Epstein. So far Clinton is showing no signs of cognitive decline.)

334. “To date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election,”

     Didn’t Muller find the same thing about Wussia, Wussia, Wussia after 2 1/2 years of investigation?

     Yet the same folk just want to believe Barr unconditionally after a 10 minute glance but Muller got it wrong somehow.

     Good luck with that consistency of scrutiny and reasoning.

335. Didn’t Muller find the same thing about Wussia, Wussia, Wussia after 2 1/2 years of investigation?

     No.
     You’re confusing William Barr’s obfuscatory two page summary for Mueller’s conclusions.

336. Jumpy, if your source has even an speck of evidence that there was fraud sufficient to swing the election now is the time to reveal it. All of the states the Trump team has targeted have certified their results. Trump lost the election and Biden is the President-elect.
     You can flail around all you like but without E…Vid…Ence you’re just chucking a tanty.

337. For anyone with a dark sense of humour here are some of Jumpy’s soul-mates.

338. Zoot: “I’m fascinated with the Republicans urging their constituents to boycott the Georgia run-off election.”
     Hadn’t heard that one before. But it makes sense. If the Republicans end up controlling the senate they won’t be able to resist blocking most of what Biden wants done. Means they will get the blame if Biden is blocked from fixing things like the virus.

339. John
     Biden is going to fix the China virus?

     How so, a “ task force “ ?

     Are you one of the folk that believes Biden that everyone that died from the China virus would still be alive if Trump wasn’t President?

340. Are you one of the folk that believes Biden that everyone that died from the China virus would still be alive if Trump wasn’t President?</blockquote
     Biden has never made that assertion.
     And just to get a feel for your grasp on reality – how many deaths are due to President It-will-go-away-when-the-warm-weather-arrives?

341. “If the president had done his job, all the people would still be alive. All the people. I’m not making this up. Just look at the data. Look at the data.”

     Joe Biden
     ( September 17, Moosic, Pennsylvania. CNN town hall speech)

     Zoot is lying again.

342. I stand corrected. Biden made a false statement. Only 25,000 more to match the outgoing president.
     Now, how many deaths are due to Trump golfing instead of doing his job? How many people have died after a superspreader Trump rally (like Herman Cain)?

343. Hadn’t heard that one before. But it makes sense. If the Republicans end up controlling the senate they won’t be able to resist blocking most of what Biden wants done. Means they will get the blame if Biden is blocked from fixing things like the virus.

     John, I don’t think they’ve thought it through even that far. They’re simply clinically insane (and not too bright to begin with).
     It remains to be seen if the sane Republicans will prevail.

344. From past experience, huge Parties of that ilk tend to self-correct and survive, however changed.

     In that regard, the ALP Split circa 1955 was an outlier.

     Well I recall the headlines “Is Labor Finished?” after the Fraser landslide of late 1975.

     Yet the same party provided PMs Hawke, Keating, Rudd, Gillard. Hardly ‘finished’. Conclusions/lessons drawn from the mistakes made by
     St Gough
     St Bob
     Paul of Invective
     St Kevin
     St Julia

     😉

345. https://www.wsbtv.com/news/politics/florida-attorney-under-investigation-registering-vote-georgia-encouraging-others-do-same/L6LTC2AHBFDMXPOTZKVMO5ESJQ&gt; Voter fraud in Georgia.
     It’s a Republican (of course!).

346. That link seems to have expired. I found it Here.

347. Zoot: I hadn’t realized that it was Trump urging his follows not to vote Republican even though at least one of the Republican senate candidates in Georgia is a Q-Anon sympathizer.
     Silly me to try and seek a sane explanation of what was going on.

348. That delayed Senate seats election is “going to be one to watch”.

     Some years ago we had a Kennett premiership in the Gloomy State. The election was on a knife-edge. A candidate died on Election Day, so a by-election was held just for that seat.

     State on tenterhooks.
     Result confirmed Jeff Kennett’s retirement.

     But he rose again: President of Hawthorn (that’s a football club, Quincelanders); top dog in the black dog institute “Beyond Blue”, etc.

349. Obviously, Ambi, you’re not up to date with the latest psychotic developments

     https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/10/23/how-the-president-could-invoke-martial-law/

     I imagine that in this model of xxxocracy it becomes a quick election with one vote per state, and Trump gets to say he won, and with inauguration numbers swollen by the presence of the entire military (by order …. and remember they are now executing federal prisoners with Trumps preferred method being firing squad) Trump can have his military parade AND the biggest inauguration crowd ever. There are a lot of “positives” in this.

     Sounds crazy,…right? Who would possibly suggest such a thing?

     https://www.towleroad.com/2020/12/michael-flynn-martial-law/

     … oh yeah, the pardoned traitor.

350. Socialist hypocrisy alert #8619429001756.

     AOC is flogging merch hoodies and shirt on the internet.

     Please join in her hypocrisy by voluntarily exchanging things she never made ( questionable components warning! ) for your hard earned ( or possibly unearned) cash.

     Bless her capitalistic heart, head of power seeking and mouth of socialism.

     The growing voice of the DNC as Obama puts it.

351. Nice try Jumpy, but no cigar

352. And BTW: Tax the Rich!

353. Good grief Jumpy, AOC is every bit as capitalistic and Freedom loving as you are. The difference is that she splices those realities with social responsibility, caring community, economic reform, and environmental responsibility.

     What is so pitiful is that some knuckle dragging, sweaty tradie types are so threatened by a little girl that they need to demean her at every opportunity to disguise their inadequacies.

354. Oh,..and by the way, Tax the Rich!

355. The top 10% already pay 45% of the tax burden in the US.

     Everything about economics is a trade off, that’s 101 stuff.
     How much more insensitive to offshore jobs, or indeed leave entirely, does AOC suggest to advance the hollowing out of the US economy?

     Or perhaps it’s just another 3 word slogan that economic illiterates chant to signal virtue to other economic illiterates.

356. How much more insensitive to offshore jobs

     Unlike the Trump criminal family, AOC has not “offshored jobs”.
     You’ve never voiced any criticism of Ivanka or her father (who lusts after her) offshoring the jobs which produce the crap they sell (or sold). Why is that?
     You’ve never criticised Trump for the damage his trade war with Chyna! has done to mid-west farm communities. Why is that?
     You’ve never pointed out that Chyna! doesn’t pay the tariffs that your lord and saviour has imposed on the goods they export to the USA. Why is that?

357. The top 10% already pay 45% of the tax burden in the US.

     Since they hold about 90% of the wealth (I can’t be arsed checking) it’s about time they paid their share. Tax the rich.

358. Most of that AOC ( little girl according to BilB ) merch looks like cotton, I wonder if it GM cotton aided in its production by glycophosphates. In other words, is she promoting Monsanto?

     I believe the vast majority if fabric inks and dyes are made in Chinese underpaying factories. She may very well be promoting that too.

     If I were to purchase one, on wonder the carbon footprint of its delivery.

     ( just remember, I’m not the shit slinging Puritan here trying to dictate how others must conduct themselves, she is )

359. In other words, is she promoting Monsanto?

     No.

     I believe the vast majority if fabric inks and dyes are made in Chinese underpaying factories. She may very well be promoting that too.

     She’s not.

     For a supposed libertarian you’re living a very closeted life. Why aren’t you out creating your own Galt’s Gulch?
     The extent to which AOC is living her ideals is an order of magnitude greater than you.

360. Meanwhile, back on topic, Trump must be tired of so much winning.

361. Just to bring jumpy up to date, Monsanto disappeared in 2018 when it became part of Bayer’s crop science division.

362. Thanks Brian, so she’s promoting German Big Pharmaceuticals not American.

     That poor ( little girl according to BilB ) Congressperson is so drenched in hypocrisy that up is down and down is up with her.

363. Note the way Mr E…Vid…Ence-or-your-pants-self-combust progresses so deftly from

     I wonder if …

     and

     She may very well …

     to the definitive

     … is so drenched in hypocrisy …

     There’s as much substance there as in his accusations of millions of dead people voting in the recent elections.
     Hypocrisy, your name is Jumpy.

364. It’s called honest conversation, try it some time.

     Now scurry off and find a quote from me that states definitively millions of dead people voted in this latest US election.

     Or did I just suggest the possibility that many votes may have been wrongfully submitted in the name of them.

     Go fetch.

365. Or did I just suggest the possibility that many votes may have been wrongfully submitted in the name of them.

     Without a scintilla of E…Vid…Ence.
     So did your pants self combust?
     Hypocrite.

366. I do like conversing with the loving, empathetic, reasonable, honest courteous betters on the far left.

     Just sayin.

367. I do like conversing with the loving, empathetic, reasonable, honest courteous betters on the far left.

     Bullshit.
     You came here for a stoush.
     You got one.

368. Jumpy: I think Trump is cunning enough to organize support from dead people and then rabbit on about vote cheating to distract people’s attention from his cheating.
     He is definitely not a “what you see is what you get” man.

369. Nope, I’d rather you and BilB ignore me, as I’ve said repeatedly.

     I’ll say it again, zoot and BilB, please ignore my every comment.

     But you most likely can’t help yourselves again.

     ( ps, don’t ignore this one )

370. John, you may be right.
     I’m sure there is election fuckery to some degree on both sides but we shall see, if their judicial process is robust enough to sort out how much by whom.
     To say there is none is idiotic.

371. Jumpy: “I’m sure there is election fuckery to some degree on both sides but we shall see, if their judicial process is robust enough to sort out how much by whom.”
     Recounts suggest that nothing significant has happened.
     The judicial system isn’t taking much notice of Trump’s outrageous demands.
     The real problem is that the US system has a number of problems that are biased in favour of the Republicans. It is a bit like Qld in the good old Joh days.

372. The real problem is that the US system has a number of problems that are biased in favour of the Republicans.

     Yes, indeed. For example it is easy for Republicans to suppress votes and voting of people who are likely to vote Democrat.

373. I’m sure there is election fuckery to some degree on both sides but we shall see, if their judicial process is robust enough to sort out how much by whom.

     Actually it’s up to the public servants who administer and police the process in each state. The judicial process can only kick in once there is E…Vid…Ence of foul play.
     So far there has been none of any significance, certainly not enough to change the result of the Presidential election.
     Team Trump has attempted to overthrow reality by presenting risible cases to the courts. They have failed pretty much every time (there has been one very minor victory). Anybody who truly distrusts the media (D) can read the court documents here. (Gotta hand it to the Dems, they’re transparent.)

374. Brian: “Yes, indeed. For example it is easy for Republicans to suppress votes and voting of people who are likely to vote Democrat.”
     The electoral systems are run by states. Republican states provide poor voting facilities in non-white areas.
     Compulsury voting makes it harder to supress votes.
     Then there is the bias that gives small states more senators per voter.
     Then there is the lack of preference voting. If nothing else it might encourage libertarians/tea party to run as separate parties instead of taking over the GOP.

375. The problems with the US system all have their genesis in slavery and the racism that is endemic in the very mechanism of government. Until the Yanks tackle that (and I’m not holding my breath) they will remain a travesty of democracy.

376. Brian

     For example it is easy for Republicans to suppress votes and voting of people who are likely to vote Democrat.

     Well they did a shitty job of it.

     Alternatively, the Biden campaign was so magnificent in stoking enthusiasm that he got 16,000,000 more votes than Obama ( 70 million ).

     Remember Obama?
     He was the half black man that presided over endemic racism for 8 years like some Clayton Bigsby type according to zoots fantastical imagination. That was less than 200 weeks ago.

     Memories fade the older one gets I suppose.

377. Zoot: In Australia there have been times when our electoral system has been unfair because people Aborigines and women have been denied a vote. There have also been bias arising from deliberate differences in the number of voters in an electorate and/or locating electorate boundaries to boost the chances of a particular party winning.
     Fair to say that both sides were guilty. In Qld the Labor party had the electorates organized in their favour. However, when the Labor party split Joh got in he reorganized the boundaries to make it very hard for Labor to win.
     In the end Joh got so bad that Labor managed to win. However, this time around Labor changed the boundaries to fair boundaries that meant both sides of politics could win.
     Around about the same time, similar things happened when Labor managed to win in states like WA and SA that had toxic biases in favour of the conservatives.
     These days boundaries are decided by independent electoral commissions that try to set boundaries to keep electorates close to equal numbers of voters AND make the likely outcome as the winner of the two party preferred vote.
     What needs to happen in the US is for something similar to happen that prompts widespread acceptance of the need for a fair electoral system.

378. Well they did a shitty job of it.

     No, they did the job they always do.
     But the Democrats did a better job of getting out the vote – helped, it must be said, by Trump’s appallingly incompetent handling of the pandemic.
     If the Dems are to maintain the advantage in 2022/24 they’ll have to work extremely hard because the Republicans who voted for Biden will return to their natural habitat.

379. John, if only there were more politicians like Steele Hall (particularly in the US).

380. John, I think the US States just need trustable election processes.
     The biggest complaint from the Reps is the counting process and illegitimate votes.

     I don’t know what the Dems complaint was in 2016, some nonsense about Wussians stealing it for trump somehow but they never explain how.

381. John, if only there were more politicians like Steele Hall (particularly in the US).
     Peter Beattie in Qld used his overwhelming wins to produce a fairer system rather than something biased the other way. However, the country seemed to be in a mood to get rid of the idea that sheep had a vote.
     Regional changes may have helped to. I live in an area that used to belong to the Nats. Now the Greens have the state seat and Labor the federal seat. Byron Bay has had a Green Shire Council for yonks and Tweed a Greens lord mayor.
     If I were a conservative Republican I would be worrying about what the system has done to the GOP and may be willing to support reform.
     One thing worth thinking about is ideas like weighting a US Senator’s vote on the basis of votes cast in their state. It gets around the real problem that Jumpy was talking about. How to give very small states a voice in the Senate when there are 50 states in the US. (A state really needs at least one senator from each of the major parties.)

382. some nonsense about Wussians stealing it for trump somehow

     Not really.

383. John, in the US each State gets minimum 2 Senators no matter their population, the rest are worked out by a quota system to bring the total number to 538.

     Article 1, Section 3 and the 17 Amendment and all that jazz.

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_3:_Senate

     There are also a verity of nuanced interpretations from State to State on how to go about implementation.

     It’s fairly fair in comparison to most countries ( cough, cough, China )

384. Verity haha, variety please instead spellchook.

385. a variety of nuanced interpretations…..

     Truth Teller

     ======
     For myself, I prefer a Senate where the election methods and practices are identical in each State.

     I find that “fairer”.

     Steele Hall: legend! How many pollies in Australia have implemented a change knowing full well it may (temporarily) disadvantage her own Party?

     In the US, I can think only of LBJ, supporting civil rights for negroes (as they were then called) against the clear preferences of his fellow Southern Democrats. (And potential backlashes in State polls south of Mason-Dixon.)

     In that instance, the JFK/LBJ team moved the nation forward.
     (Yes, I know. Only by inches.)

386. This just in:

     Fox News journalists are getting the most abuse from the crowd lining up for Trump’s rally in Valdosta, Georgia. Cries of “we trusted you” and “traitors”.

     Nice one Rupert.

387. What’s Bloomberg’s ( D) [worth two Ruperts ] position?
     Or Dorsey [ 1/4 of a Rupert )
     Or google/YouTube [ 15 or 20 Ruperts ]
     Or Zuckerberg [ 4 Ruperts]

     How about reach and influence of All of The Above?

388. ????

389. Interesting one on conspiracy supporters: “It can be hard to hear your mum thinks the Earth is flat. But saving a loved one from conspiracy theories is possible.” https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-06/mum-thinks-the-earth-is-flat-saving-family-conspiracy-theories/12935984

390. This is what the income distribution looked like before Trumps huge tax cuts to the rich, tax cuts made since Jumpy’s as I recall him using the same figure some time ago

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States

     With that income disparity the upper quintile should be paying 60% of all taxation and the lowest quintile should get a huge pay rise. Then you will see the disparity level out a little.

     Tax the Rich

391. Bilb, There are current reports that the number of ‘food insecure’ people in the US is now over 50 million.

     Millions are also behind with their rents and evictions are expected. A COVID aid bill has been stuck in Congress forever. Back in October when they were looking at the appointment of judge Amy Coney Barrett it was said that they couldn’t do both at the same time, so their priority was with stacking the supreme court.

     In latest news, Giuliani has contracted COVID.

     7-day average of new cases is near 200,000, and daily deaths around 2,220, so by the time Biden takes over there could be another 200,000 deaths or more.

     Meanwhile China is so clean we could look at opening our borders with them, maybe revive our overseas student industry, but if I said that I would probably be told to wash my mouth out.

392. Interesting one on conspiracy supporters: “It can be hard to hear your mum thinks the Earth is flat. But saving a loved one from conspiracy theories is possible.”

     John, possible, but difficult, it seems.

     Gallop has found that More Americans Now Willing to Get COVID-19 Vaccine:

     Fifty-eight percent of Americans in the latest poll say they would get a COVID-19 vaccine, up from a low of 50% in September.

     The 42% are not all anti-vaccers:

     In a follow-up question, 37% of Americans who would not get a vaccine say the rushed timeline for the development of the vaccine is the main reason they would not be vaccinated. Another 26% say they want to wait to confirm the vaccine is safe. Rounding out the reasons for some Americans’ hesitancy are 12% saying they don’t trust vaccines in general and 10% who want to wait to see how effective the vaccine will be. An additional 15% cite other reasons for not getting a COVID-19 vaccine. Included among these reasons are the politicization of the vaccine potentially comprising its safety and the view that the vaccine is not necessary.

393. Brian those US income figures are horrible. The unfettered greed unleashed by Reagan has been the down fall of America.

     I am not that nice a person to not want Giuliani to suffer, which frankly I hope he does with his Covid encounter.

394. Bilb: “I am not that nice a person to not want Giuliani to suffer, which frankly I hope he does with his Covid encounter.” At least he will have grade A medical care. Much much better than what other Americans get because Trump reduced Obamacare

395. Here’s a lefty who agrees with our own Jumpy regarding the essential nature of E…Vid…Ence.
     Even with my limited knowledge I can see his maths is crap but it’s all a bit of a hoot.

396. BilB, first realise that US state can inflict income taxes.

     Then look at the Gini indexes of each individual State and ask yourself if Democrat Party State legislators are better or dragging the rest of the country down.

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_Gini_coefficient

     You may find Democrat does not equal inequality.

397. You may find Democrat does not equal inequality.

     But Democrat does equal reduced deficits, a topic close to your heart I believe.

     BTW, what effect did Trump have on the deficit? The Republican deficit hawks have been very quiet on that particular topic.

398. zoot, the comments on the ‘coin tossing’ piece cover most of the maths…. and there was no need for a picture of tables of integrals…. but the part I find most worrying is:

     Moreover, a few of these cases have been heard before judges who were personally appointed by Trump. Others were heard by Republican judges appointed by other Republican presidents. Additionally, state court cases were heard by a number of Republican state court judges.

     suggesting that “judicial independence” is not realistically expected in some quarters, over there.

     [OTOH, most journalists observe that you can’t always predict how US Supreme Court Justices will judge. Once appointed, some confound the commentators……]

399. Runoff Elections in Georgia Are Disasters for Democrats. Here’s Why This Time Is Different. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/12/runoff-elections-in-georgia-are-disasters-for-democrats-heres-why-this-time-is-different/?utm_source=mj-newsletters&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily-newsletter-12-07-2020
     Organizing against voter suppression and high turnout in November are giving Democrats hope for the critical senate run-offs. :
     “On November 16, 2018, when she ended her bid to become Georgia’s governor, Stacey Abrams listed the many problems that had made it more difficult to vote in that month’s election: 1.5 million voters purged from the rolls, more than 50,000 put on a “pending” registration list, more than 200 polling places closed, thousands of mail ballots rejected, and waits of up to five hours to cast a ballot—tactics that disproportionately harmed voters of color. “Democracy failed Georgians,” Abrams declared.”
     Biden won in Georgia because of a successful campaign to clean up the Georgian electoral process:
     “The electorate in 2020 was the one Abrams envisioned in 2018. People of color made up nearly 40 percent of all voters, and Biden won roughly 70 percent of their votes. He improved on Abrams’ margin in eight counties in metro Atlanta, building a remarkably diverse coalition of new voters, young voters, people of color, and moderate white suburbanites. According to an analysis by the Democratic data firm Target Smart, Asian American turnout increased by 91 percent from 2016 to 2020, Latino turnout by 72 percent, and Black turnout by 20 percent, while white turnout grew by just 16 percent.

     Between 2016 and 2020, 1 million new voters were registered through Georgia’s system of automatic voter registration at motor vehicle offices and registration drives by grassroots groups. Two-thirds of them were people of color. Amazingly, the number of eligible but unregistered Georgians fell from 22 percent in 2016 to just 2 percent in 2020.

     In addition to high-profile organizing work by Abrams and her allies, many restrictive voting rules that led to disenfranchisement in 2018 were also reformed through litigation and advocacy.

     In 2020, it was harder for election officials to throw out mail ballots for mismatched signatures, and voters had a chance to fix problems with their ballots after Election Day. In 2018, Black and Latino voters were more likely than white voters to have their mail ballots rejected, and young voters were more likely than older voters. The overall rejection rate for mail ballots fell from 3.4 percent in 2018 to just .2 percent in November. ”
     Worth a read to understand how corrupt the US electoral system had been for yonks.

400. John, in the US each State gets minimum 2 Senators no matter their population, the rest are worked out by a quota system to bring the total number to 538.

     Jumpy, far be it from me to cast doubt on an eminent constitutional expert, but you seem to have conflated the House of Representatives with the Senate.
     In the US each state gets 2 senators. The Senate has but 100 members. The House of Representatives is fixed at 435 according to your link.
     And while I’m here, it appears to me that the Trump Legal Team is trying to overthrow the 17th amendment and have the country return to a situation where the government is chosen by the state legislature rather than elected by the people.
     Thanks for the link – very interesting.

401. That’s a great article John, thanks for the link.

402. So, zoot: is 538 for the Electoral College??

     Sounds like a good idea to me: I suppose it would be a College specifically focusing on educating Americans in Electoral Practices.

     Gotta be a better College than “Trump University”.

     Our own ‘real estate tycoon’ Alan Bond, set up “Bond University”. Hmmmm, spent some time in the slammer, didn’t he? Bankrupted and shamed?? Dearie me.

403. So, zoot: is 538 for the Electoral College??

     It would appear so, particularly since the Electoral College includes the District of Columbia which is not a state (yet) and therefore has no representatives in the Senate or the House. This would be where the extra three electors come from.
     Jumpy apparently thought the Senate was the same as the Electoral College – a curious error for someone so well versed in the ways of our American cousins.

404. Good article warning that Trump may be preparing the ground for a future, competent coup attempt.

405. zoot, I think the Republicans crossed a line at some point where they no longer regarded Democrats as having any political legitimacy.

     There is a bit of that here. Remember John Howard saying that a party that only represented the workers, and was controlled by the unions, could never represent the interests of all Australians.

406. Zoot: Talking of Republican rejection of democracy: “Texas lawsuit demands other states change
     Texas has asked the US Supreme Court to throw out the voting results in four other states — Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin — in a long-shot legal gambit intended to help President Donald Trump upend his election loss to president-elect Joe Biden.

     Officials from the four named states called the lawsuit a reckless attack on American democracy while legal experts gave it little chance to succeed.

     Read our full coverage of the US election and its aftermath.
     The case was filed directly with the Supreme Court rather than with a lower court, as is permitted for certain litigation between states.

     The lawsuit argued that changes made by the four states to voting procedures amid the coronavirus pandemic to expand mail-in voting were unlawful.
     Texas makes the remarkable request of the Supreme Court to immediately block the four states from using the voting results to appoint presidential electors to the Electoral College, essentially erasing the will of the voters.” https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-09/donald-trump-joe-biden-us-elections-updates-vaccine/12963960
     Of some comfort “The US Supreme Court has denied Republicans seeking to throw out up to 2.5 million mail-in ballots in Pennsylvania as they try to undo President Donald Trump’s election loss, with the justices refusing to block the state from formalizing president-elect Joe Biden’s victory there.” Non of the judges supported the demand.
     On the positive side republican state government have rejected Trump’s demands to ignore the will of the voters when deciding who they send to the electoral college.

407. John, as I understand it (and I’m no expert) it’s a federal challenge based on the Constitution, and not on the election laws of the particular state. So it doesn’t, and can’t, affect the certification of the result for that state (“safe harbour”). Therefore, Congress must accept the votes of the electors from these states.
     The fact that SCOTUS refused to even hear the Pennsylvania appeal is heartening.

408. Zoot: “The fact that SCOTUS refused to even hear the Pennsylvania appeal is heartening.” I suspect Trump thought that a conservative high court would support him. So far it looks like the judicial system at both Federal and Supreme levels are behaving the way they should.

409. Yes John,I’m mildly (and pleasantly) surprised the Republican office holders and judiciary have persevered with the rule of law.
     Trump and his enablers are rapidly running out of options. It remains to be seen what will happen if he tries to suspend the Constitution and send in the armed forces.
     And speaking of the Constitution, they might as well rescind the 25th amendment. If it hasn’t been invoked under these circumstances it never will be.

410. Peter Brent writing in January 2017 about one vote one value said:

     The electoral college, which technically chooses the president, was designed in part as insurance lest the electors select someone unacceptable.

     If it was working as intended Trump should never have been let near the White House.

     He is right in saying we haven’t quite got it right here either.

     Listening to a program about the Whitlam dismissal I was reminded that Whitlam introduced a one vote one value principle here, but had to go to a double dissolution to get it through in 1973. The law limits the ‘degree of malapportionment’ between seats.

     Brent points out that political parties were not a consideration in the minds of the authors of our constitution. Probably same same in the US.

411. It remains to be seen what will happen if he tries to suspend the Constitution and send in the armed forces.

     From what I’ve heard, my bet is that they would disregard the orders of the Supreme Commander.

412. I agree with you on that score, Brian.

     I believe the judges and service chiefs are sworn to uphold the Constitution (as are judges of the SCOTUS).

     Military intervention to reverse an election would be clearly unconstitutional. Embarrassing to have to write that.

413. He’s either delusional or criminal (or possibly both?)

     “Asked why the White House did not invite anyone from the incoming Biden administration to today’s vaccine summit, the President once again denied the outcome of the election:” “Well, we’re gonna have to see who the next administration is … hopefully the next administration will be the Trump administration … we were rewarded with a victory”.

     Clearly he is unfit for the position he holds, no matter how temporarily.

414. Here’s an excellent, if longish, read.
     The author of the article I recommended above has published an argument counter to hers. And it’s quite thought provoking. Well worth the time.

415. It’s quite worrying, zoot. From what I heard this is pretty much the way it is:

     American public life has bifurcated, and we now occupy two disconnected public spheres.

     One of these spheres comprises the world of Fox News, talk radio, the Sinclair media empire, highly ideological local papers, and the Qanon stuff your uncle watches on YouTube. The other sphere is the world most of us inhabit, the world of NPR, the New York Times, cable news, and what used to be called the mainstream media.

     These two worlds are aware of each other (this is not an argument about “epistemic closure” or “filter bubbles”), but in the same way that rival religions or sports fans are aware of each other. You don’t get to mix between them—you have to pick a side.

     I think I referred once to the American Shakespeare authority who said that in Shakespeare’s plays his main characters make community by rewarding their friends and punishing their enemies.

     That’s why, he said, Shakespeare never ran foul of the political authorities the way other playwrights did.

     That’s why, he also said, Shakespeare has been fantastically popular in the US.

     And now it is so bad Congress doesn’t pass legislation any more.

     Makes the Georgia senate runoff crucial. Bruce Shapiro says that result is about turnout, and the Dems have the momentum.

     However, if they win, it is unlikely to stay that way after the mid-terms.

416. In the meantime, “The US state of Texas has drawn support from 17 other states in its long-shot bid to have the US Supreme Court overturn President Donald Trump’s election loss by throwing out the voting results from four other states. ” https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-10/us-election-latest-donald-trump-joe-biden-supreme-court/12969226
     States have the right to go to the supreme court for disputes between states.

417. Widely reported today:

     Hunter Biden said the US attorney’s office in Delaware is investigating his “tax affairs.” Biden said in a statement released by his father’s transition team, “I take this matter very seriously but I am confident that a professional and objective review of these matters will demonstrate that I handled my affairs legally and appropriately, including with the benefit of professional tax advisors.”

     …. ‘released by his father’s transition team’…..
     ah, the relief…. not by a tweet, by Fox News, by the New York Post or the Daily Mail or the Herald Sun. No, by a duly authorised transition team.

     BTW, if the new President has from Jan 2021 to the next mid-terms, surely some useful achievements can be made.

     I don’t belong to the {“We’ll all be rooned”, said Hanrahan} school of politics.

     bilb2 claims I have a ‘Disnified’ view of the US polity. I prefer “Pollyanna-ish”, but no need to quibble. It’s not about me; it’s American citizens who cop it, and in their hands is their fate.

     BTW: good old Shakespeare, but all feudal Lords and Kings reward courtiers and allies; the point of a democratic republic is to try to minimise patronage, favouritism, lack of fairness and open scrutiny.

     BTW: a recent reading of Machiavelli contends that “The Prince” was written not as a how-to manual for despots; rather Niccolo wanted to warn people what schemes and intrigues a despot has at his (sometimes her) disposal.

     Cheers

418. hmmmmm a ?

     ?

     instead of a
     /

     ‘released ….. etc., not meant to be italicised

     Incompetent Pedantry Association,
     State of Confusion

419. “Coronavirus kills more people in the US in one day than on September 11” https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-10/coronavirus-us-marks-deadliest-day-since-september-11/12953842
     “Most Americans will tell you; September 11, 2001 sits deep in their minds as one of the nation’s darkest days.
     It was the country’s deadliest day in modern times.
     It was the single deadliest terrorist attack in human history; 2,977 died.
     Now, COVID-19 has trumped that grim marker, with more than 3,000 people dying with the disease on Wednesday (local time), according to data collected by Johns Hopkins University.
     It will now likely become the yard stick society uses to rationalise the grief next time there’s a human tragedy that kills on an industrial scale.
     And while coronavirus is incomparable in many ways to the sudden toll from a terrorist attack on American soil, the slow-moving, invisible enemy is upending society in the same way terror has done.”
     And Trump still thinks he won the election.

420. Hi John,

     Don’t want to be overly fussy, but in your comment there, the phrase

     trumped that grim marker,

     includes a verb that may soon go quite out of fashion.

     Over here, in the Old Money State, we’re starting to say “Biden our time” instead of “bidin’ our time”. I mean, one really does need to keep up to date. After all, when all’s said and done, we did learn not to say “ruddy” when that simply ghastly little Rudd person was PM.

     And all the nicest people at the Club used to joke about novel and film titles containing ‘Howard’ or an author’s name or some such.

     The wit!!

     Must say we did have a bit of a soft spot for little Hawkie…. even though he led that awful party. Cheating Keating we called the next one (though I hear that Hawkie was the real cheater…… one of our chaps called Hawkie a ‘bedroom bandicoot’ !! Laugh? The wit!!) Gladys had to explain to me what a real ‘bandicoot’ was; we’re more fox and hounds people over here in Toorak.

     Keeping an eye on young Chalmers.
     Could be because Phoebe and I’ve always had an eye for the young charmers….
     What a hoot!!

     😉

421. Did I say that , Ambi? are you sure it wasn’t a typo? “dignified” perhaps. Regardless, I think Brian has jinxed America by calling this thread “Trump’s LAST stand” . That evidently made him more determined to….. “Never give Up!! Never surrender!”, which is also the motto for Pence’s Space Force when fighting the caravans of invading evil Alien Capsules.

422. I wonder why “ our” ABC continually hammer the US on the Covid deaths and rarely mention Belgium, Spain, Italy or Peru.

423. I wonder why “ our” ABC continually hammer the US on the Covid deaths and rarely mention Belgium, Spain, Italy or Peru.

     You left off the (D) when you wrote ABC.
     No need to thank me, just happy to help.

424. Ambi, I fixed your comment at 11:14 AM.

425. No comment necessary.
     SCOTUS should chuck out the Texas lawsuit within the next few hours.

426. Its simple Jumpy, the countries you referred to all had a recent second wave when they tried to go back to normal, huge fail, and the ………………………………….. immediately ………………………………. reacted and their daily cases are going down dramatically.

     The US on the other hand have “petrol on the flames” Trump and “white as the driven snow with flies on top” Pence on the job, and their new case count just keep surging upwards.

     It might also explain why Joe Biden and Kamala share the Times Person of the Year Award, and Trump achieves the Life Time Title of Donald J Trump PPO (permanently pissed off).

427. BilB, that is bullshit and everyone knows it.
     Spain and Italy were smashed earlier on.
     Which of them were locked down and then opened up ?

     As for trump, there was another Muslim nation that resumed diplomatic ties with Israel yesterday, that’s 5 or 6 now. That’s Peace Prize stuff in the “ impossible “ problem, Times (D) is a joke that only acolytes give value to.

428. Jumpy if you’re going to continue wasting your time in an attempt to hammer the ABC (D) you should really take it to a different post.
     This thread is about “Trump’s last stand?”.

     PS: Found any evidence yet that Trump won the election?

429. Zoot, the ABC ( ALP/green) is of a different circus, same sort of monkeys though.

     And I’ve never said that trump won did I ?

     Stop being the most useless tweeter on blogs please.

430. Meanwhile, back on topic, here’s a report of the other state’s response to the Texas lawsuit courtesy of CNN (D) (although I can’t detect any obvious lies and they provide links to the source documents – but greater minds than mine …)

431. As you are unable to google information Jumpy, here is Spain

     https://www.google.com/search?q=spain+covid&oq=spain+covid&aqs=chrome.0.0i457j0l7.4464j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

     and here is the US

     https://www.google.com/search?q=spain+covid&oq=spain+covid&aqs=chrome.0.0i457j0l7.4464j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
     I see also that you are now using the Trump model of definitive proof .. ” and everyone knows it.” You missed out the catalogue of crimes … “there are terrible things happening, terrible things”

432. And I’ve never said that trump won did I ?

     You implied it by saying Biden was elected via fraudulent votes, a statement you made without any evidence.
     Even Rudy’s clown car says “no fraud” when they get in front of a judge and have to tell the truth..
     So, without any evidence of fraud and all election results certified by the states are you prepared to concede that Trump lost the presidential election? (It’s a simple yes/no answer)

433. the ABC ( ALP/green) is of a different circus, same sort of monkeys though.

     Good grief, you don’t even have the wit to realise when you’re the subject of a pisstake! You need help.

434. Danke schoen, Brian

435. BilB, you may have had too much vino to keep to a consistent line of conversation or link properly.
     You said,

     Its simple Jumpy, the countries you referred to all had a recent second wave when they tried to go back to normal….

     How did they try to get back to “ normal “ and what were the abnormal circumstances they abandoned?

     Still, “ our” ABC ( ALP/green ) don’t seem to care about deaths per capita, but rather USA bashing again.

436. I think bilb repeated the Spain link for the USA. Hope this works.

437. “The Supreme Court Just Threw Out Texas’ Absurd Election Lawsuit”
     https://www.motherjones.com/2020-elections/2020/12/the-supreme-court-just-threw-out-texas-absurd-election-lawsuit/?utm_source=mj-newsletters&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily-newsletter-12-11-2020
     The good news from the US election is that the credibility of the court systems held up very well against the claims submitted by Trump supporters. Conservative judges are judges that do things by the book, not use their power to help radical right causes.

438. Conservative judges are judges that do things by the book, not use their power to help radical right causes.

     I think in these last two cases the petitioners were so far out of bounds that the Supreme Court had no options. The test case for radical right bias is the challenge to Obamacare, which should be decided soon.
     But I admit to some schadenfreude since Trump bragged that Amy Corona Barrett was rushed onto the court in order to steal the election. Why does he always say the quiet part out loud?

439. Zoot: “But I admit to some schadenfreude since Trump bragged that Amy Corona Barrett was rushed onto the court in order to steal the election. Why does he always say the quiet part out loud?” I recall that what Amy said indicated that she would work by the book rather than support right wing nut cases.

440. I think the notion that Texas could bring a case that nixed the result of the election counts in four other states was always a publicity stunt.

     Amy said she will work by the book, and I’m sure she will. However, she will also be true to her particular interpretation of The Book handed down by GA (God Almighty).

     In large part evangelicals voter for Trump because they thought he would fix the Supreme Court in such a way that it would fix Roe vs Wade. Time will tell.

441. I recall that what Amy said indicated that she would work by the book rather than support right wing nut cases.

     I prefer to judge her and her colleague Boof on their actions rather than their words. I’m waiting to see if they protect the populace from the tyranny of universal health care.

442. Another version of the SCOTUS decision from Adam Liptak in Nine newspapers:

     The Supreme Court on Friday rejected an audacious lawsuit by Texas that had asked the court to throw out the presidential election results in four battleground states captured by President-elect Joe Biden.

     The court, in a brief unsigned order, said Texas lacked standing to pursue the case, saying it “has not demonstrated a judicially cognisable interest in the manner in which another state conducts its elections”.

     The move, coupled with a one-sentence order on Tuesday turning away a similar request from Pennsylvania Republicans, signalled that the court has refused to be drawn into President Donald Trump’s losing campaign to overturn the results of the election last month.

     /- – here endeth the quote.

     I reckon “[Texas] has not demonstrated ——– in the manner in which another state conducts its elections” effectively
     1. tells Texas to mind its own bl**dy business
     2. asserts the primacy of each State in the elections conducted within its boundaries
     3. tells The Donald to stop being silly
     4. pretty much puts an end to this unnecessary farce

     Meanwhile, the adults in the room are organising many of the details of an orderly transition.

     At this stage, I think the US Armed Forces would be very disinclined to bring on a Donald December Surprise.

     The “checks and balances”, however they functioned from Jan 2016 to October 2020, seem to be creaking along OK now.

443. Ambi, what some people are asking is why 17 Attorneys General and 125 Congress persons joined Texas in the lawsuit.

444. On Trump and the virus, the US has just had a daily count of 246,530 and deaths have just passed 300,000, with three days now of deaths over 3,000.

     I think jumpy’s point is that if you look at the main table on this site there are OECD countries that have had more deaths per million than the US.

     However, most of them have done something to arrest the spread of the virus. The US is on a third wave without really recovering in between.

     It’s not really surprising that we are talking about Trump’s performance on the virus on a Trump thread, especially since he’s done a fair bit to make the situation worse.

445. “In large part evangelicals voter for Trump because they thought he would fix the Supreme Court in such a way that it would fix Roe vs Wade. Time will tell.”
     Roe vs Wade is held up as an example of a court going beyond interpretation of the law.
     However, the US is predominately a common law country. Under common law ” (“Common law is a body of unwritten laws based on legal precedents established by the courts. Common law influences the decision-making process in unusual cases where the outcome cannot be determined based on existing statutes or written rules of law.”)
     Common laws can be replaced by legislation or a decision made by higher judges which then becomes the new common law. My take is that Wade vs Roe would be common law. Not sure to what extent the current supreme court could change a common law set in the past by the supreme court.

446. Remember when the USA (and much of the western world) was traumatised by a little less than 3000 deaths on one day – 11 Sept 2001?
     The USA is now looking down the barrel of more than 3000 deaths on every one of the next 60 to 90 days, largely because Trump (the subject of this thread) chose denial over leadership.
     I would hazard a guess that most of the population not subscribed to the Trumpist death cult is probably, and quite rightly, traumatised by that thought. And it probably led to >80 million of them voting for Biden/Harris. But it’s just a guess.

447. Just some context on the Trump/COVID matter: from a “Washington Post” article in September this year. It concerns interviews by a Mr Bob Woodward, of whom many of us have heard.

     [On February 7th ] Trump called Woodward and revealed that he thought the [COVID virus]situation was far more dire than what he had been saying publicly.
     “You just breathe the air and that’s how it’s passed,” Trump said ……. “And so that’s a very tricky one. That’s a very delicate one. It’s also more deadly than even your strenuous flus.”

     “This is deadly stuff,” the president repeated for emphasis.

     At that time, Trump was telling the nation that the virus was no worse than a seasonal flu, predicting it would soon disappear and insisting that the U.S. government had it totally under control. It would be several weeks before he would publicly acknowledge that the virus was no ordinary flu and that it could be transmitted through the air.

     Trump admitted to Woodward on March 19 that he deliberately minimized the danger. “I wanted to always play it down,” the president said. “I still like playing it down, because I don’t want to create a panic.”

     emphases added by a notorious emphasis-adder

     {BTW, I imagine an experienced journalist/Washington insider such as Mr Woodward, has a practice of retaining tapes of all interviews.}

     After all, President R.M. Nixon tape recorded meetings in the Oval Office. What a rich trove of contemporaneous, spontaneous items of oral history those recordings provided to Grateful Posterity.

448. Could we please have a few more statements that the DNC cheated and stole the Presidential election held early last month?

     I used to find Absurdist Theatre stimulating, albeit often puzzling. Besides, I haven’t run out of popcorn yet.

     BTW Jumpy, I concur that many noisy D supporters and Congress persons never accepted that DT had been legitimately elected in 2016.

     And my opinion that Hillary C was a very poor candidate, still stands. Mr Biden and Ms Harris had the advantage in 2020 that a DT Presidency had been the “lived experience” of voters, where in 2016 it was perforce an anticipated 4 years, with the usual unpredictability that any Presidency begins with.

     May the Electoral College be with you.

     /sermon>

449. I understand tomorrow is the day the electoral college decide.

450. That’s tomorrow EST, which is the gold standard we use north of the border.

451. You have to see the situation in the way that Trump perceives an emergency, then consider the power that he has available to him.

     https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/01/presidential-emergency-powers/576418/

     One man’s emergency is another man’s schemergency, but only one of them has the ability to declare it. Once the lever is pulled the ability to do anything about it is severely limited. How committed do you imagine Trump has been fantasizing about his ability to kill people, then he found a way to do it with Federal death row prisoners, another just the other day. Many psychopaths practice torturing animals in their early youth. Trump is experimenting now with the brutality he can and needs to deploy to maintain his power (read personal protection against the Liberal hoards).

     My pick of the day Trump goes full Autocrat is January 3 at 1 am. Or not.

452. According to this ABC explainer Biden is due to speak about noon Wednesday Australian daylight saving time. Here in Quinceland we get it an hour earlier by the clock, in proper time.

     If you want to see what the virus is doing in America under Trump’s stewardship, have a look at The five shocking scenes that show the US is losing its coronavirus fight.

453. Biden’s speech was a bit earlier. I heard the main bit on NewsRadio. Unfortunately he felt he had to spend most of the time essentially saying American democracy worked.

     He got 81 million votes, 7 million more than Trump. Electoral college votes were an exact reverse of 2016. Back then Trump called it a landslide.

     All court applications thrown out as not worth looking at, including twice by the Supreme Court.

     He will govern for all, and hopes and expects dialogue with Republican lawmakers.

     Decent bloke, Biden.

454. Are we now allowed to address Biden as President-elect?

455. He got 81 million votes, 7 million more than Trump.

     Yeah, 15 million more than Obama did just 8 years ago.
     Unbelievable result I’d say.

     It may have made a difference if Barr had not kept secret that Hunter has been under investigation since 2018 or if Pfizer hadn’t held back their vaccine announcement till after the vote but now President Elect Biden can be accurately described as exactly that and President Trump has 36 days as exactly that.

     https://www.tickcounter.com/countdown/10457/days-until-trump-leaves-office

456. Yep. It is probably safe to say now that Biden has now won. In part because some Republican politicians and state governments officials and all relevant judges did the right thing and supported democracy.
     Biden has also won despite the efforts of the Trump team and some other Republican politicians to undermine democracy.
     The election also highlighted deep flaws in the US system that created bias in the system that, on this occasion favoured Republicans but may favour other parties under different circumstances.
     Hopefully this election might inspire a multi party review of the US democratic process and lead to a durable system that is fairer and more difficult to distort.

457. It may have made a difference if Barr had not kept secret that Hunter has been under investigation since 2018 or if Pfizer hadn’t held back their vaccine announcement till after the vote

     Maybe. But Oo the other hand, if Trump hadn’t denied the coronavirus and completely failed to tackle the pandemic he would have easily won a second term.

458. Hopefully this election might inspire a multi party review of the US democratic process and lead to a durable system that is fairer and more difficult to distort.

     Not a chance John, not while the Republicans are the minor party.

459. Everyone relax. According to Qanon POTUS has everything under control. Q tweeted:

     We need 100% of people indoors to see what the US military is going to broadcast on everyone’s TV sets worldwide. It is going to be very painful but we can no longer have people divided. Around Sunday/Monday POTUS will tweet “My Fellow Americans The Storm is Upon us. We will go to FULL GLOBAL MARTIAL LAW. He will most likely be on board AF1 when he sends out 7 PRESIDENTIAL MSGS to everyone’s phones and TV Sets Worldwide on the Emergency Broadcast System. From there all Global Militaries via US Military will shut down all Media, Internet. Phones and all TV Programming (EMERGENCY SERVICES WILL STILL HAVE THEIRS) so the US military can Broadcast 10 days of 3X8 hr Sessions of Video Confessions, Military Tribunals, Lots of Evidence for the Scandals listed in the STORM article. While this is happening they will be removing Governments Worldwide and making Global Arrests (500 Thousand Indictments) GESARA / NESARA will be activated which will be a FULL RE-WIRING of Planet Earth.

     George Soros must be quaking in his boots.

460. Jumpy, that is totally whacked thinking. So to your mind the knowledge that some one’s son is under tax investigation makes that person a less worthy President than someone who has a list of some 800 documented crimes and somewhere between 20 and 30 thousand verified lies to his credit?

     That means that you would employ an accountant who you new was going to watch television and tweet all day, was going to use your business to make himself more money than you do to pay his gambling debts, and when you finally fire him you know he is going to do everything he can think of destroy your reputation and your business, him over a regular boring accountant who gets your accounts in order and saves you money, but has a son who may have a tax problem?

     Go Jumpy!

461. “15 million more than Obama 8 years ago”.

     Jumpy, you are aware that when voting isn’t compulsory, the total number who vote (and indeed the number who bother to enrol) can vary substantially?

     Just wondering……

462. A (very) quick search indicates the population of the USA was 314,043,884 in 2008 and 331,002,647 in 2020, a difference of 16, 958.763.
     That’s nearly 17 million extra potential voters. (Yes, I know I’m ignoring childbirth. A ridiculous proposition doesn’t need rigorous data to rebut it)
     And Trump’s demonstrated ability to get out the vote has to be taken into account. (Unfortunately for him it was Democratic voters he most inspired).

463. Yes Mr A, I am aware, obviously, but you knew that didn’t you ?

     In any event, Harris will be President inside Biden’s first term.
     Anyone care to wager a month of commenting here on it , the loser abstains from commenting for a full month from her inauguration.

     By the way, congratulations to you all, the media (D), Hollywood, academia, China and BIG social media conglomerates on the win.
     You’ve earned it.

464. By the way, congratulations to you all, the media (D), Hollywood, academia, China and BIG social media conglomerates on the win.
     You’ve earned it.

     Not my win old boy – not my circus doncha know.

465. Clearly Trump energised the eligible voters to turnout to vote. A higher than usual turnout was expected. I think it will be very high in Georgia in January.

     Seems the US has a lousy turnout compared with other countries according to Pew. It’s quite high for registered voters, but that is a different story. The US has low voter registration. Pew seems to assume that everyone who wants to register can do so. I don’t think that is the case.

     Australia only scores 80% of voting age population, but that could be because we have some residents who are not citizens.

     Wikipedia has turnout for POTUS elections going back to 1828. The 2020 election came in at about 72-73%, which was the highest since 1900. For some reason voting slackened off markedly in the 20th century.

     This graph shows Presidential and mid-term turnout. The latter is distinctly lower.

466. In any event, Harris will be President inside Biden’s first term.

     Well that was George Soros’s plan.
     He explained it all at the last antifa meeting in that Washington pizza place where they imprison the kids. I’m surprised your impeccable sources didn’t pick up on it, they’re usually so reliable. Or have they decided you’re no longer to be trusted with the truth?

467. Mr J

     Of course, my point was that a much higher vote for Mr B than for Mr O, isn’t evidence of fraud per se , but when accompanied by a general population increase (thanks Mr z) and a higher percentage of eligible voters turning out (thanks Mr B) can be fairly unsurprising.

     We could go on speculating for months, about how and why Mr T (as he soon will be) was a factor in bringing out extra voters; why some folk would vote for an older man (Mr B) but not for a younger, more vigorous man (Mr O). But I’d rather watch grass grow.

     Several commentors here, and others in the media, have suggested Ms H may well bevome Pres. It’s trite to say it’s a possibility. See LBJ 1963, see Gerald Ford 1974, see Harry Truman. And so forth. That’s their system.

     Cheerio.

468. Biden won in the primaries and the main election because people of colour remembered how he behaved over the years and trusted him enough to take the effort to vote for him despite all the barriers put up to discourage them by voting by many Republican states. Biden also won in Georgia because of efforts made by past democrat candidates to make it easier for everyone to vote in that state.
     My guess is that Trump also put off conservative and Christian voters who were not impressed by his behavior and encouragement for groups like the proud boys.
     He may have done better if the vaccine had become available but his failure to do what other countries did before they got the vaccine, and the sheer numbers of people affected would not have helped him. Then there was his campaign to reduce health support to those who cannot afford to be treated for the virus.
     And………. There were lots of reasons why Trump lost Jumpy.

469. Senate majority leader M. McConnell has acknowledged Mr Biden’s victory.

     Supreme Court, Electoral College, Senator McConnell…….

470. Looking forward to reading extracts from Mrs Melania T’s memoirs. (I hope DT doesn’t attempt to block their publication.)

     Senator McConnell could make a fresh start by enrolling in his local chapter of RR [Recovering Republicans]. They offer a Ten Point Plan, much like AA. But for Congresspersons they can NOT offer Anonymity.

     It’s all there on the public record.

471. Ambi: “Senator McConnell could make a fresh start by enrolling in his local chapter of RR [Recovering Republicans]. They offer a Ten Point Plan, much like AA. But for Congresspersons they can NOT offer Anonymity.”
     People have died who would not have died under a better leader but your point above highlights the one of the serious problems with the American system that Trump highlighted. The problem for the Republicans was the infiltration by the Tea Party and the way McConnell successfully imposed party disciple that converted the GOP into a disciplined blocking unit instead of a loose group of independents who could do deals with Democrat presidents.
     In the long term Trump may turn out to have made a major contribution to the US by challenging the benefits of free trade, particularly when nothing is done to help those who lose out when their jobs are lost to other countries, Ditto by Trump’s demonstration just how fragile and biased some of their institutions are when faced by someone like Trump or the takeover of a political party by a group like the Tea Party.

472. Francis Fukuyama talks about Will a Biden presidency revitalize America at home and abroad?.

     I haven’t listened to it yet. May do so tomorrow as I work with my phone in my pocket, via bluetooth.

     I doubt that anything structural will change about the election system if it means a change to the constitution or diminishing states’ rights.

     John, you said:

     My guess is that Trump also put off conservative and Christian voters who were not impressed by his behavior and encouragement for groups like the proud boys.

     Some expert said today that 80% of evangelicals voted for Trump this time, same as 2016. However, some of the 20% are severely pissed off about what happened, so there is division.

     I think it may have been Roxanne Stone in What is the political future of white evangelicalism after Donald Trump?

     Speaking of division, yesterday I heard a repeat of a Late Night Live program, an interview between Jonathon Green and James Shapiro Shakespeare in America.

     Shapiro is the American Shakespeare scholar who says Shakespeare, especially in his comedies, created community out of division, by rewarding your friends and punishing or excluding your enemies.

     Ditto for America, he says. He has a host of interesting tales, including Ulysses S Grant having to play Desdemona in Othello, the black guy, because he was short. Later, of course, he led the Union army in the civil war, and became 18th POTUS.

473. Brian: “Some expert said today that 80% of evangelicals voted for Trump this time, same as 2016. However, some of the 20% are severely pissed off about what happened, so there is division.” How much of this is tribal loyalty vs opposition to abortion and things like gay marriage is hard to tell from here.
     Critical change this time around was the coloured vote. Part of the reason this increased in Georgia was a campaign in the last few years to fix up the problems that made it hard for coloured people to vote. Lesson here for Democrats and coloured people in a range of states.
     Heard a comment years ago that one of the strengths of America was that when they decided change was needed they were good at making it happen. I live in hope.

474. Will have more to say

     Shakspare
     Spectral.realm.org

475. “Joe Biden picks former rival Pete Buttigieg as transportation secretary in ‘historic’ US Cabinet”. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-17/joe-biden-introduces-pete-buttigieg-as-his-transportation-chief/12992632
     “Key points:
     Mr Biden says Mr Buttigieg is “the first-ever openly gay nominee to lead a cabinet department, and one of the youngest cabinet members ever”.
     He is a military veteran and ran a campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination against Mr Biden
     He will play a central role in Mr Biden’s proposed infrastructure and environmental initiatives'”
     May not help the evangelical vote.

476. Yes, John.

     But some evangelicals are likely more tolerant than their spokespeople.

     People are generally not sheeple.

     (I recall that in Australia, several years after the Pope banned oral contraceptive use by Catholic women world wide, a survey of Australian women showed that the % of Catholic women using The Pill was exactly equal to the national average. Those women [and it wasn’t a tiny %] were simply ignoring the edict.)

477. Ambi: “But some evangelicals are likely more tolerant than their spokespeople.” Quite right. Humble withdrawal of comment.

478. Good to see that two of the stronger of the younger Primary candidates (D) will have roles in the Biden White House: Harris and Buttigieg.

     More to come?

479. Kimberley Strassel in the “Wall Street Journal” quotes outgoing US Attorney-General Barr…….

     “He also makes no apology for declining to divulge before the election that [President-elect Biden’s son] Hunter Biden was under investigation. He acknowledges that the Justice Department’s rule against confirming probes involving office-seekers is “not absolute” and that he could “imagine” a “dilemma” in which government has “decisive evidence of a serious crime against a candidate”. But in the absence of those conditions there’s “damn good reason for the rule”, which protects disfavoured politicians, and private citizens with whom they’re associated, against the deep state.

     “Think about the power it would give the federal bureaucracy,” he says. “The standard for investigating someone is low. So just gin up an investigation, make it public, affect every election.”

480. Seems Trump has blacklisted more than 60 Chinese companies on security and human rights issues. China wants to sit down and talk with Biden – China’s foreign minister wants better ties with Biden administration.

     My guess is that Biden will respond favourably, not ‘Hold their feet to the fire’ as some are urging.

     Bad luck for us.

481. I wouldn’t call it luck.

482. Donald Trump suggests China, not Russia, is behind SolarWinds cyber espionage attack on the US https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-20/trump-downplays-impact-of-massive-hacking,-questions-russia-inv/13001536
     Still standing up for his Russian mate?
     “In his first comments on the breach, Mr Trump also downplayed its seriousness and impact.
     “The Cyber Hack is far greater in the Fake News Media than in actuality,” Mr Trump said on Twitter on Saturday (local time).
     “Russia, Russia, Russia is the priority chant when anything happens because Lamestream is, for mostly financial reasons, petrified of discussing the possibility that it may be China (it may!).
     Mr Trump’s assertion that China may be behind the hacking spree, which has so far affected more than a half dozen federal agencies including the Commerce and Treasury Departments, runs counter to comments by his own Secretary of State and multiple politicians briefed on the matter.”
     “Daniel Hoffman, a former CIA Moscow station chief, said the Trump administration needed to quickly explain why Mr Pompeo blamed Russia, while the President cast doubt on that assessment.
     He noted that Mr Pompeo served as CIA director before becoming the top US diplomat, and he has “an extremely sophisticated understanding of national security”.
     “How is it that he attributed the attack to Russia and the President did not?” he asked.
     Mr Hoffman said that “based on everything we know”, the hack was directed by Russia’s external intelligence service, known as the SVR, using APT29, the Russian hacking group known as Cozy Bear.
     “We don’t want to speculate that it’s somebody else. We have to be clear in attributing because when you take action in response, you need to be right,” Mr Hoffman said.”

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