Weekly salon16/3

1. Unforgivable atrocities

Words fail me, so I’ll borrow some from Ambigulous on the last Salon thread:

    Horrific, murderous attack(s) in Christchurch; to add to the horror, apparently live streamed by a gunman. An Aussie in custody. And three other people? A long “manifesto” written by one of the murderers.

    Police armed all over Aotearoa, Land of the Long White Cloud.

    Cry, the beloved country.

From SBS – Christchurch terror attack: 49 dead, Australian man arrested.

The latest count is 50 dead, I understand. I think it was 48 injured, 20 seriously, and at one stage 11 operating theatres were in use.

Here’s the ABC’s main story Christchurch shootings at two mosques leave 49 dead, Australian arrested in relation to live-streamed terror attack.

Jacinda Adern has been excellent. She said the victims “are us”, pointing out that New Zealand comprised over 200 ethnicities, speaking 160 languages.

My only comment is that there can be no forgiving atrocities of this kind. Adern effectively said the perpetrators are not fit to walk among us. Like us New Zealand has forsworn the death penalty. However, they should never be free again.

If you scroll down this link, oxygen thief Fraser Anning made an unforgivable tweet. Not sure what to do with him.

Problem is that Amy Remeikis is right in Fraser Anning will soon leave parliament – but his xenophobic message will not.

Subsequently a young man egged Anning in public, and was punched in return. Who gave him the platform to speak?

Emil Jeyaratnam looks at race and racism in Australia. This is disturbing:

    Most troublingly, the report found that 32% of survey respondents have “negative” feelings towards Muslim Australians, and 22% said they have “negative” feelings towards Australians of Middle-Eastern heritage.

People who might know put hard-core racism at about 10 to 15% in Australia. A bipartisan censor motion of Anning is planned. Scott Morrison says the full force of the law should apply, while Anning revels in the publicity. They might think about what politicians need to do in order to be expelled from parliament.

And ScoMo might think about his publicity stunt of hand-waving on Christmas Island (see Weekly salon 10/3, Item 4) pretending to be a brick wall, when people smugglers are simply flying people in over his head.

2. A mad dash for the life-rafts

That’s Australian politics on the government side, according to Phillip Coorey in It’s every man for himself in rush to Coalition lifeboats:

    The Queensland Nationals, in cahoots with Barnaby Joyce, put the interests of the Coalition behind their own desire to save their skins north of the Tweed by amplifying calls for the government to underwrite coal-fired power in their state.

    The prime motive was to provide a point of differentiation with Labor and all the other hippies south of the border – including the “latte inner-city Liberals” as George Christensen, with his usual rapier wit, described his Coalition colleagues.

He says:

    They issued the coal call knowing, but not caring, that it would go down terribly in places like Victoria where the Coalition’s standing is already dire.

    When the likes of Joyce pretty much openly states, as he did this week, and as Matt Canavan indicated by his actions, their priority is Queensland not seats in Melbourne, it’s confirmation of every man for himself.

Tony Abbott has re-embraced Paris to save his skin in Warringah; Peter Dutton has said he opposes the government building coal.

ScoMo won’t mention Paris or coal. It’s “our commitments” and “traditional sources” of energy.

Coorey says:

    Liberals and Nationals spent two days on Sky News and ABC 24 taking potshots at each other under the guise of “we need to stop talking about ourselves”.

Now Craig Laundy is pulling the pin, following Julie Bishop, Christopher Pyne, Steve Ciobo, Michael Keenan, Kelly O’Dwyer and Nigel Scullion out the door.

Someone pointed out that the moderates are leaving.

3. NSW election: Mumble picks the winner

Mumble (Peter Brent) picks the winner in And the winner of the NSW election will be…

He’s picking Labor in a close one, but, really, it’s just too close to call. There are seven crossbenchers, so the likelihood of a hung parliament is high.

Then Malcolm Turnbull warns ‘idiocy’ of federal colleagues is damaging Gladys Berejiklian. He’s saying what Phillip Coorey is saying.

On coal and climate change:

    “We have the means to get to zero emission or near zero emission in Australia but you need to plan it. You’ve got to have engineering and economics rather than ideology and idiocy, and regrettably there’s quite a lot of that around.” (Emphasis added)

Yes, Malcolm, but its the idiots in the broad church of the coalition parties that are the problem.

4. Elizabeth Warren wants to break up big tech

I think the number of Democrat candidates seeking the party’s presidential nomination is around 16 and still seems to be rising. Elizabeth Warren expresses some very definite views in Here’s how we can break up Big Tech. It’s time to break up Amazon, Google and Facebook, she says:

    We must ensure that today’s tech giants do not crowd out potential competitors, smother the next generation of great tech companies, and wield so much power that they can undermine our democracy.

She wants to dust off anti-trust legislation and put it to work.

Our Tim Dunlop addressed the same issue in his book The Future of Everything. His interview with the ABC’s Paul Barclay at Brisbane’s Avid Reader bookshop can be found at Ideas for a better future, where he talked about:

    his bold ideas for reinvigorating democratic government, reclaiming the ‘commons’, and insisting that tech giants pay us for using our personal data.

In the interview he wants to go one better and nationalise companies like Google and Facebook, so that they become commonly owned facilities. Dunlop has very interesting views about the future, which I’d like to look at in relation to the Jeremy Rifkin video linked to by Geoff Henderson, if/when I get time.

Dunlop says in economic terms information is the new oil, which will form the basis of a new economy. He has ideas about the polity as well, but sees shorter working weeks (for the same pay) as actually happening and a trend that will continue.

98 thoughts on “Weekly salon16/3”

  1. Not sure what to do with him.

    Not sure of the efficacy of these things but here’s a petition to expel Fraser Anning from the Senate.
    More than 800,000 signatures so far.

  2. Thanks, zoot, I just went looking for the petition, which was up to 829,371, a few minutes ago.

  3. We’ve had some very poor Senators but Senator Anning seems to be in a League* of his own.

    * League of Rights??

  4. Christchurch

    Words fail me too, Brian.

    They failed me then and so they do now also.

  5. Someone pointed out that the Liberal moderates are leaving.

    Does this mean that the coalition will become the hard right party? Or that liberal Liberals find another party to join or strike out on their own?
    Or that people start to recognize that the Greens are the true conservative party in Aus and start voting according to this recognition?

  6. Thanks zoot,

    His brave and clever actions were one of the bright spots, while the shooter was still roaming free.

    (And heartbreakingly, his young sons called out, urging him to return to what they imagined was safety.)


    No need for random sample polling.

    Because Senator Anning received only 19 first prefs, psephologists have been able to interview all 19.

    Six were members of his family, are changing their surname, and have moved to “Don’t Know”. Four others were distant relatives and refused to nominate their voting intentions.

    Three claimed their pencils slipped.
    The other six have gone into exile in WA.

    The psephologists believe his 19 has dropped to four, but in a late surge, two new voters have confused him with a TV star and adore him,

  8. I was no less horrified at the massacre in Christchurch than I was at all the other senseless massacres of innocent, unarmed people of all ages. Please note: this was “the massacre in Christchurch” and definitely not “the Christchurch massacre”; the good people of that city did not plan it, they did not carry it out, they do not deserve having the name of their city slapped on it – it was and it remains the fanatic’s massacre, the extremist’s atrocity, the evil-doer’s crime against humanity.

    Perhaps I missed it- but – I neither saw nor heard any praise for the courage, speed and discipline of the N.Z. Police who went into an unknown and exceedingly hazardous situation so swiftly and so effectively. Good on them!!

  9. Jacinda Adern has been clear that Brenton Tarrant, 28, is not one of them. However, here in Oz we need to own him; like it or not, he is one of us.

    Jason Wilson, in his article, Australians are asking how did we get here? Well, Islamophobia is practically enshrined as public policy, blames John Howard for picking up on Pauline Hanson’s anti-immigration fixation, and exploiting it politically, and the Murdoch media for the same.

    Jonathon Freedland says To prevent another Christchurch we must confront the right’s hate preachers, JA Hellyer in the UK says The Islamophobia that led to the Christchurch shooting must be confronted and clinical psychologist Masuma Rahim says After Christchurch, Muslims need more than just your thoughts and prayers:

    Politicians and the press can keep their platitudes. They’re meaningless unless they’re borne out by action. It’s time to make a stand. Defend our rights. Protect us from terrorism. Use your position to send a clear message that hatred has no place in society. Stop giving a platform to extremists. Stop pretending that white nationalism is not a threat to us all. Have the courage to stand up for our rights as citizens.

    Too many have died. More will die if you fail to act. History will judge you for it.

    There’s more at The Conversation under the tag Christchurch Mosque shootings. The first, Greg Barton’s Christchurch attacks are a stark warning of toxic political environment that allows hate to flourish says here things took a turn for the worse in 2001:

    Scott Morrison is right to say these problems have been with us for many years. But he would do better to point out that our downward trajectory sharply accelerated after John Howard’s “dark victory” of 2001. The unwinnable election was won on the back of the arrival of asylum seekers on the MV Tampa in August followed by the September 11 attacks, and at the price of John Howard and the Liberal party embracing the white supremacist extremist politics of Pauline Hanson.

  10. That petition has passed the million mark.
    ScoMo might want to rethink his strategy re Christmas Island.

  11. Too late to re-think his Christmas Island video opportunity statesmanlike speech.

    It’s a well-established rule:

    a wall does not dismantle itself.

  12. Brian: I think it is a good thing that parliament does not have the power to expel members. This doesn’t mean that members can still be expelled on the grounds of serious criminal conviction, dual citizenship etc. (Ironically, it was a dual citizenship conviction that got Anning into the Senate.)
    Makes it too easy for a government with a majority in its own right to expel opposition members who are putting pressure on the government.
    The only member of parliament who was expelled for condemning England’s oppression of the Irish between the wars. Most of us would consider this an appalling reason for expulsion these days.
    BTW: Suspect all the attacks on Anning are simply building up the numbers of people who will vote for him. The man needs to be starved from attention for the same reasons the NZ government have tried to minimize the attention given to the Christchurch killer.

  13. BTW: Suspect all the attacks on Anning are simply building up the numbers of people who will vote for him.

    I have enough faith in the good sense of Queenslanders to predict he won’t reach anywhere near a quota in May.

  14. ? Was 19 above the quota?

    Definitely not. Which was why he wasn’t elected.
    He replaced Malcolm Roberts (who scored 77 first preferences) when that sovereign citizen was found to be ineligible due to him holding dual citizenship.
    In May Anning will be standing as an independent and so will not be able to benefit from the patronage of Pauline Hanson.

  15. I’ve been looking at the relevant AEC page and those 19 votes were below the line, so they are the number of people who definitely voted for Anning, who was third on the ballot. Number 4 (Judy Smith) actually received more first preference votes – 47.
    He was on the nose even as a part of One Nation. On his own he will be toast, unless there’s been a huge resurgence of the KKK in Queensland.

  16. And for a change of subject:

    For more than forty years, both the architecture of labour market regulation and the discretionary choices of governments have been designed with the precise objective of holding wages down.

  17. For more than forty years, both the architecture of labour market regulation and the discretionary choices of governments have been designed with the precise objective of holding wages down.

    During the stagflation years when Howard was treasurer there was a need to slow the growth of both wages and prices.
    Problem was that Howard was so scarred by his experience that he wanted to get revenge on the unions and reduce the share of GDP that was received by the poorest paid workers.
    Problem is that it is the growing wages of the workers that fuel economic growth. (The better paid workers use more of their money on speculative activities instead of Australian goods and services.)

  18. Well Windy.com has modeling closely matching that of the BOM now. TC Trevor ( piss weak atm ) to track west southwest over the tip and into the Gulf. After that it’s anyone’s guess.

    Look like the BOM gets the marbles this time, well played.

  19. Labor and Bill Kelty at the ACTU held wages down for a decade in the 1980s.

    When Howard and Costello reigned, we were exhorted to spend more, save more, and get paid less by breaking the power of unions, increasing discretion of bosses and extolling competition. They also said (in 2004) that interest rates would always be lower under them, before a whole string of successive interest rate rises.

  20. zoot, you pretty much have it right about Anning. However, voting ON will throw up lunatics of one kind or another, and anti-immigration has consistently been central to their agenda.

  21. Brian, Australia was built on the White Australia policy and even though it has morphed into one of the most diverse populations on the planet, at heart we Anglos are timid, parochial little racists who are terrified of anybody who looks different.
    I remain hopeful that things will change, but I’m not optimistic.

  22. ….at heart we Anglos are timid, parochial little racists who are terrified of anybody who looks different.

    Speak for yourself.

  23. That’s what self confessed timid, terrified little racists do, try to hit nerves.

    Mission failed on this occasion.

  24. Never said that and you know it.

    Flail on self confessed timid, terrified little racists at heart.

    Actually that admission is refreshingly honest of you, nice change.

  25. Oh, and Islam is a religious ideology not a race.
    It’s a quite annoying thing that I was going to let slide in the OP.

  26. Oh, and Islam is a religious ideology not a race.

    It’s about both, Jumpy. From the post:

    Most troublingly, the report found that 32% of survey respondents have “negative” feelings towards Muslim Australians, and 22% said they have “negative” feelings towards Australians of Middle-Eastern heritage.

    The term that coverts both is “The Other”, but it’s not a term used in common parlance.

  27. One thing that really annoys me is politicians who blatantly and knowingly lie.

    Yesterday evening Matthias Cormann said that Shorten was going to increase wages by government fiat.

    Shorten has consistently made clear that the process would be consultative and the decision would in fact be made by the Fair Work Commission.

    Cormann would have known that and lied anyway.

    There is a tendency to say “both sides do it”. At the very least, since Abbott became PM and Shorten took over as Labor leader, there has been only one side doing it.

  28. Brian

    “ It’s about both, Jumpy. “
    But they are still seperate things.
    Islam is not a race.

    I actually have negative feelings for all religious ideologies but, unlike zoot, no negative feelings toward any particular race.

    This whole conflating ( as zoot did and some aspects of the OP on this ) is a tactic, conscious or not, to label non-racists as racists because they disagree about something. Because if one is really a racist then nothing they say should be heard.

    I disagree on one or two things in these parts but the only one I consider a racist is zoot because he confessed it.

    As fa

  29. Brian

    Shorten has consistently made clear that the process would be consultative and the decision would in fact be made by the Fair Work Commission.

    I thought Shorten tabled a bill ( no pun ) to overturn the Fair Work Commission decision on weekend penalty rates and pledged to overturn it when he sits in the Big Chair.
    Am I incorrect on that ?

  30. I appear to have inadvertently triggered Jumpy, for which I apologise. But in my defense, I honestly believed I was dealing with someone in possession of a more robust psyche.

  31. Zoot, I’m fine and untriggered, strong and non-racist.

    Sorry about your situation, can I help in any way ?

  32. Ok, let’s see if I can help.

    …at heart we Anglos are timid, parochial little racists who are terrified of anybody who looks different.

    Anglo- well, you can do anything about that and it doesn’t matter anyway, we’re all people.

    Timid – it’s ok to feel cautious in this world, it’s a harsh place sometimes but historically it’s a miracle you survived your birth and lived as long as you have. We both have the unprecedented opportunity to be anywhere we want, who we want, read what we want, eat every day, keep warm and dry. We got it crazy good noadays historically.

    parochial – perhaps read a couple of thing that are 180 degrees from catastrophist lefty wing media information sources. Try an optimistic right wing media source. Just maybe one article a week, then two, until you get close to 50/50. Don’t rush then give up, it’ll be difficult so take it slow and incrementally.

    Let’s juat start with that and I recon the racist and terrified will take care of itself.

    You know I’m here for you every day mate, we’ll get through this together.

  33. Jumpy, I’m not sure about what Shorten did about weekend penalty rates, but we weren’t talking about that. He’s been very clear about how he would tackle the ‘living wage’ thing.

    Cormann chose to lie.

  34. Jumpy, on race and religion, many recent migrants have been suffering vilification, denigration and whatever on both counts.

  35. zoot: You were so wrong when you threw up that nasty stereotype, “at heart we Anglos are timid, parochial little racists who are terrified of anybody who looks different”... That’s the sort of Aussie-bashing, middle-class racism that is driving ordinary, decent people with genuine grievances and ignored real needs into the open arms of right-wing extremists.

    Yes, there is timidity in Australia but not where you said it was. For instance, Shorten and the A.L.P have shown deplorable timidity by not wanting to hear anything unpleasant about the realities of finding dependable jobs instead of gigs and body-hire, by not wanting to listen to distress of those struggling to find or remain in weatherproof dwellings; they have shown deplorable timidity in neglecting to get tough with property owners and real estate agents and with migration agents, labour hire swindlers and dodgy employment “providers(??)”. If ScoMo gets re-elected – God forbid! – then it will be by default and because of A.L.P.. timidity.

    Jumpy: You said, “I actually have negative feelings for all religious ideologies “. That is a very mild form of the general feeling I have kept coming across since the tragedy last Friday; some of that general feeling has been quite abusive. Apart from regular church-goers, (and I’m one of them) there is a groundswell now to get really tough with ALL religions: Christian, Moslem, Jewish, Buddhist, Calathumpian, the whole damned lot.
    If the petition to get rid of Anning scored over a million signatures, I think a petition right now to outlaw all religions in Australia would get several million signatures.

  36. Graham, if you go back to zoot’s comment:

    Brian, Australia was built on the White Australia policy and even though it has morphed into one of the most diverse populations on the planet, at heart we Anglos are timid, parochial little racists who are terrified of anybody who looks different.

    I remain hopeful that things will change, but I’m not optimistic.

    I was reminded of one of my country rellies, about 20 years ago, I think just after the Pauline and ON appeared, went to Melbourne for the first time, and in reporting on her travels commented “Where are all the Australians?”

    At the time she was seeing southern Europeans on the streets of Melbourne.

    Around the same time my elder bro, who was involved in top-level National Party affairs (he was one who encouraged the young Barnaby Joyce to enter politics) said that almost everyone he knew had migrated to ON.

    At the time, I think I had never met a Moslem in Australia, and personally felt some fear, although I recognised my ignorance and would have assumed that if I got to know them better my attitudes may well change, as they have.

    We are all older, more knowledgeable and with a bit of luck, wiser. In the post I found this, from an article at The Conversation, disturbing:

    Most troublingly, the report found that 32% of survey respondents have “negative” feelings towards Muslim Australians, and 22% said they have “negative” feelings towards Australians of Middle-Eastern heritage.

    It appears to come out of a study that ran from 1998 to 2014.

    As far as I can make out, People of British-Irish descent represent about two-thirds on the population. Add northern European and you get about three quarters, and Caucasions run to 90% or more.

    If zoot is saying that attitudes, common when we had the White Australia policy, in vogue at the time when the concept of the Australian nation was being formed, have persisted in uncomfortable numbers and influence in our culture, he is right. If it is meant to be a generalisation typifying ‘Anglo’ (a problematic concept) Australians, then probably not.

    However, I don’t think that calling out undesirable attitudes towards race and religion is itself racist. We can either call out such attitudes or walk on by. I think now is not the time to walk on by.

    That said, I would have chosen different words.

  37. Interesting comment GB:

    I think a petition right now to outlaw all religions in Australia would get several million signatures.

    Don’t know whether it is true but I do think a lot of Australians resent the way some religious factions want to impose their beliefs on Australians as a whole by mobilizing their parliamentary supporters to impose and oppose things that many Australians don’t support.
    Most of us will accept laws that ban things like stealing and bopping off your neighbours but when Pell and his mate Abbott worked to stop people having a choice re euthanasia or allowing even a free vote on gay marriage many of us have a problem because it goes out side what I would describe as shared moralities. It gets worth when public Christians like Abbott and Morrison think it is OK to treat refugees in an appalling fashion or contribute to 600 refugee drownings by blocking Labors Malaysian solution because it was working and thus would make it harder for them to win the next election.
    Shame. I have enough good Christian friends to see the good Christianity does in the community to be saddened by the idea that Christianity may disappear because of the activities of some.

  38. I was not indulging in stereotyping; I used the descriptor Anglo because I can’t speak for the migrant experience, not being a migrant or descended from migrants. The operative words in my comment were “at heart”.
    I grew up in the fifties and thus absorbed the general “white is right” attitudes of the time.
    As a teenager I vividly remember being outraged that the family running the lunch shop at my school would dare to speak Italian while they were dealing with the crush of students waiting to be served.
    I remember in my thirties my automatic response of fear when I stopped at a deli to buy cigarettes and the only other customers were an Aboriginal family.
    In my fifties I observed the automatic stereotyping of “black bastards” by my co-workers in an insurance company.
    So – at heart, I and most of the “white” people I have ever known are conditioned to be racist. Most of us are aware enough to work against it (as Brian notes) and progress has been made. But since John Winston Howard’s success with the Tampa our politicians have benefited if they beat the racist drum and campaign to instill fear of the other in the electorate.
    I am hopeful the outrage arising from the shooting in Christchurch will turn the tide, but I’m not optimistic.

  39. JD: In Australia Christianity is slowly withering away (I speak as the husband of a priest). Attendance at churches has plummeted since the glory days of the fifties and fewer and fewer people are feeling the call to become ordained.
    The influence on politics of the churches is definitely out of proportion to their size, but that seems to be a feature of our political system – how many people actually belong to the major parties?

  40. zoot, interesting.

    As far as I can make out the Liberal Party has about 80,000 members.

    Labor apparently had less than 44,000 when Shorten became parliamentary leader, and he said he aimed to lift it to 100,000. It seems to have stalled at about 53,000.

    The word reaching me about the Catholic church is that the priesthood can’t recruit domestically in significant numbers. Increasingly the local priest will be an immigrant from a different culture. The Catholic church appears to work on the premise that the priest has a special place in communication between the faithful and God. They appear to be on a road to nowhere.

  41. Zoot: Grew up a right little empire royalist in the fifties who was convinced of the superiority of people of Scottish descent, quite comfortable with the suppression of the “others” and things like paying Aborigines lower wages and denying them a vote. Startled when I started high school and a wharfies son declared that he was an atheist. Hadn’t occurred to me before then that there was any question about the existence of god.
    Things went down from their. by the time I was 14 I decided that I didn’t support Christianity because the Christian system for deciding who got to heaven didn’t meet my standards of fairness. Spent a lot of time reading about Asian religions and philosophy in general.
    When I got to university I was able to get myself labelled as a wild radical by writing an article in the uni newspaper arguing the case for agnosticism. (Suggesting that god might not of existed was considered outrageous.) Also became active in Abscol, an organization that provided scholarships to encourage Aborigines to go to university and also developed policy for the national students association. (I was national policy chairman at one of their national conferences.)
    Within a few years though things had changed to the point where suggesting god might exist would have been considered a bit strange.
    I think Vietnam was a major driver in these changes. It made the baby boomers lose confidence in the older generation in all sorts of ways.
    Dunno what is going to happen to Christianity. Hope the good Christianity does does not get lost because of some of the bad associated with organized religion.

  42. My experience is with the Anglicans who have an advantage in that they accept women into the priesthood.

  43. My previous comment was in reply to Brian.
    John, my trajectory was similar to yours. I was staggered when at age 17 (or thereabouts) I saw a young Australian communist interviewed on 4 Corners and I realised he was just like me, just with different opinions (he didn’t have horns or a tail or even cloven hoofs).

  44. zoot, there has been a lot of positive comment about Jacinda Adern’s leadership. It seems clear that New Zealand will change for the better as a result of what happened in Christchurch.

    That could have happened here too, but we simply have a deeply flawed and compromised leadership. On the 7.30 report Laura Tingle asks Is enough being done to condemn Islamophobia? and again talking to Phillip Adams that night.

    On 7.30 Ed Husic tells how in 2004 he ran as the first Muslim candidate and faced:

    an under-the-radar campaign that targeted me on the basis of faith and tried to spook people about whether or not I could actually sit in the Federal Parliament.

    ScoMo was diector of the stste Liberal Party at the time.

    Then Waleed Aly reported an allegation that ScoMo had raised the issue of Muslim immigration as a possible political attack strategy in shadow cabinet discussions in 2011.

    Tingle told Adams that Aly’s statement on the internet had gone viral and had been visited 10 million times. At the time Morrison initially declined to comment on the story, then later referred to it as “gossip”, which did not reflect his views.

    There was not the strident denial that he has now produced.

    Our politicians and media have been a major part of the story. One can argue that the ABC also amplifies and boosts nutcases like Fraser Anning and ON. Fran Kelly was giving Pauline Hanson oxygen again this morning.

    I think there will be more restraint in the future, but seriously, we have too many nutcases in politics and prejudice permeates the media. Laura Tingle pointed out the Anning got elected, not by 19 votes, rather the 200,000 votes for ON in Qld.

  45. I would agree the standard of our politicians is generally deplorable with rare exceptions – something, which you have already pointed out, we can trace back to Howard’s abysmal term in office.
    And as far as I’m concerned if we didn’t have that frightened child at the core of our being, nobody would have voted ON.

    [Yeah, I know, that’s not what TA was/is about]

  46. President Erdogan of Turkey has made some remarks involving “anti-Muslim Australians, Gallipoli, and returning to Australia in coffins like their grandparents “.

    He appears to be a human who is quite content to mix together religious affiliation and national identity (Islam, Turkey). Especially in a heated manner. He doesn’t resort to the subtleties and euphemisms of “dog whistling”.

    Whether or not his remarks amount to an incitement to violence against certain visitors to Turkey, others may judge.

  47. Zoot

    I would agree the standard of our politicians is generally deplorable with rare exceptions – something,

    That’s why Libertarians believe politicians should not be getting increasingly larger control of our rights, freedoms and hard earned.

    We the people know and care more about ourselves, family, loved ones and communities than those … so and so’s.

  48. I would agree the standard of our politicians is generally deplorable with rare exceptions

    I’m actually hoping for better politicians.
    Libertarians can believe what they like but until they come up with a workable system of governance they’ll remain (rightly) on the fringe. And since it appears axiomatic that Democracy and Libertarianism are incompatible I don’t think it will happen soon.

  49. I believe Libertarian ideas are more Democratic than what we have now.

    When I ask myself if a single decision by everyone every four years is more democratic than the millions of decisions every four years that everyone makes, I tend to favour the latter.

    I’m not convinced in the least that you understand what Libertarian ideas are.
    But that’s ok, we have a bit of time left to sort that if you decide to.

  50. I believe Libertarian ideas are more Democratic than what we have now.

    That puts you at odds with Peter Thiele who no longer believes “that freedom and democracy are compatible” and Patri Friedman (the Sea Steading dude) who says democracy is ill-suited for a libertarian state.
    What model are you proposing?

  51. Brian: Thanks for your own insights. It is hardly surprising that I burred up Having grown up in cane-growing , mining and inner-urban environments, and with square-heads and dagos in the family and with daily contact with Aborigines and a sprinkling of non-Caucasians, it was almost impossible to grow up with allegedly typical Australian racist and supremicist attitudes. Differences were noticed, of course they were, but, these tended to be differences in affiliation, sect and wealth, not race or ethnicity. Worse yet, after serving in the Viet-Nam War, our vicious, ignorant “betters” assumed that people like me just must have delighted in “greasing gooks” and “hating slopes” (neither term was used by Australian troops!) and that we were all dyed-in-the-wool right-wing racists and gun-lovers Is it any wonder that I now detest negative stereotyping so much? The real diversity and the tolerance that continues to exist among us boagans cannot be denied.

  52. Zoot

    What model are you proposing?

    Basically one the has “ you are free to do as you want if it doesn’t materially or physically harm other individuals” as it’s foundation.

    That’d be a start.

    Assuming you read those two articles* before putting them forward, could you please provide a brief summary as I’ve not time this evening to read them ?

    ( *I’m hoping this wasn’t the tactic of burying the other with googled opposite headline links that we see too often )

  53. Ahh, they were shorter than I first thought, apologies.

    Fundamentally, as these chaps state, Libertarians want no border. The free movement of any folk to go anywhere, and that’s what you believe I think.
    The problem is some are financially harmed by the welfare State, that you love I think.
    The two are incompatible.
    So they state Democracy, that hires people to steal from other people is bad.

    Libertarians are not homogeneous, there is a huge amount of intellectual debate.

    Those two are arguing against socialist democracy not democracy itself.

  54. Those two are arguing against socialist democracy not democracy itself.

    That’s not how I understood them.

    Basically one the has “ you are free to do as you want if it doesn’t materially or physically harm other individuals” as it’s foundation.

    That pretty much defines the principles underpinning western democracy, but for the sake of argument I’ll pretend it’s different. What would this system look like? How would it work? What protections do you propose to make sure individuals aren’t hurt materially or physically. What remedies do you propose if, despite your best efforts, they are?

  55. Jumpy: You have suddenly got this Libertarian state and are feeling real good about it all. Then the local mafia gangs each demand eye watering amounts of protection money. What do you do now that there is no-one to enforce the “doesn’t materially or physically harm other individuals” clause?
    Since I am basically a nice man I hope, for everyone’s sake you never get what you dream for.

  56. Graham, I won’t go through the education of young Brian, but on the farm, at boarding school and at university I met quite a few people who had grown up or even fought in WW2. Germans, Norwegians and guys from central Europe.

    One bloke was in an elite unit in the German army of 175 at full strength. He told how it was withdrawn when the numbers got down to the 20s and re-formed with new recruits. That happened 15 times. Finally he got a bullet through the hand swimming a river to get away from the Russians.

    Our secondary school was the cheapest boarding school in Brisbane and had about 20% non-Lutherans, had some ethnic Chinese and Indians from PNG and Fiji, I think, and a few PNG natives.

    At uni I remember a bloke who worked as a gigolo in high class Swiss hotels to save enough to come to Australia.

    I was too young to be drafted in the 1950s, and luckily too old for Vietnam. In 2006 I read Well done those men, which gave some understanding, but I’m not sure we could ever understand. So I’ll just say my heart goes out to you.

  57. John
    Libertarians ( in the vast majority ) do not want no government at all, rather limited government.

    I don’t know how many times it’s got to be said, libertarians are not anarchists, there is a roll for a governmental body hired to protect citizens property and physical rights.

    Your hypothetical example isn’t really hypothetical.
    The three levels of government are the mafia that demand protection money or men with guns will visit with force.

  58. Jumpy: So how would libertarians structure this limited government and how would they pay for it? Surely not voluntary contributions?
    I’m struggling to find anything of practical substance in libertarian thought.

  59. It’s limited government and limited taxation.

    So you’ll accept limited numbers of demands for protection money or men with guns will visit with force??
    (Your description of taxation at 4:25 pm)

  60. Pretty much, way way limited.
    And never to protect me from myself.

    Do you want more ?

  61. Do you want more ?

    So far you’ve provided nothing of any substance (I already knew you don’t like paying tax).
    Some time ago you stated that the only role for government is in the protection of property rights and your contribution to this thread has demonstrated that your flavour of libertarianism offers nothing more than “smaller government”. You have provided no indication as to how it will guarantee anyone’s freedom to do as they want if it doesn’t materially or physically harm other individuals, your motherhood statement that began this discussion.
    Quite honestly, I don’t believe you’ve got any more to give.

  62. Aww, that’s a shame you turned combative, I thought this was the most productive discussion we’ve ever had until that.

    I may try again tomorrow.
    Which, given your a self confessed parochial racist, I really shouldn’t give the time of day to.

    Ok, see ya, bye. sleep on it.

  63. Jumpy: I suspect that there is a little bit of libertarian in all of us. The difference is how badly the disease has struck and what we are talking about.
    For example, an extreme libertarian might do nothing, on principle, to talk a teenager suffering from the angst of lost love out of suicide.
    By contrast an extreme cotton wooler might want to lock the teen up in a padded cell until the urge to suicide, or murder, has passed.
    I guess I see libertarianism as a useful concept for dealing with pharisees who want to limit my life according to their way of thinking. But as an excuse for not paying taxes and letting the less fortunate suffer? Nope, just sounds like selfishness to me.

  64. Thanks Brian. I think I mentioned either here or over on L.P. years ago the terrific variety of people we had in just one squadron (just over a hundred) with which I served in South Viet-Nam. Not just in social classes, religions, races/ethnicities, family status and pre-enlistment occupations but also in political and social beliefs. The only thing that could be stereotyped about the whole mob was that we (1) were Australians by nationality, (2) usually but not always spoke English, and, (3) were soldiers. But this diversity was quite common in other groups in civilian employment too

    The beer-swilling, deliberately ignorant, uncaring, selfish, nasty, intolerant yobbos are in no danger of being put on the endangered species list just yet but they are nowhere near as common as is supposed and they are not typical of what I take to be the average range of Aussies.

    By the way, I didn’t see Waleed Aly let fly last Friday but if he did get really angry who could blame him at all? A whole lot of his co-religionists had just been murdered in the most horrible and dishonourable way..

  65. An imam at the memorial gathering in ChCh this afternoon had many words of thanks
    – for the NZ Govt
    – for police and ambulance crews
    – for those drivers who pulled over to help
    – for neighbours who opened their homes to people fleeing

    …. and for those who were angry but controlled their anger

    Interesting and wise words.

    pax vobiscum
    peace be with you

    Alle Menschen werden Bruedern

  66. Wait and see – sometimes the better tactic, eh?

    Otherwise known as
    Keeping those Animal Spirits for Growth and Entrepreneurial Endeavour well under control.

    Safety First
    is a good theme for builders, Mr J

  67. It could be spun that way Mr A.
    But the smoko chat calls that shat.
    Among Men on the tools Bills ideas are uncool.
    They want to earn a living not have it be given.
    Bills plan is a folly but he doesn’t care, he gets free sangers and lollies.

  68. I was referring to your own decision, Mr J, rather than Mr S’s policies and their predicted effects.

  69. An editorial in the New York Times is headed:

    America Deserves a Leader as Good as Jacinda Ardern.

    Just saying…….

  70. Looks like NSW has rejected misogyny and elected a strong Women to lead them.

    Good on em.

    ( they’re shite at Rugby League but that’s beside the point in this context. 🙂 )

  71. Interestingly Jihad Gib is a resounding choice in Lakemba with ( early numbers ) 71% of the vote.

  72. Interesting. It seems there has been a significant swing to the Greens in Ballina, Balmain, Newtown and Vaucluse. That’s quite a mix of demographics.
    [Of course, I’m relying on the hopelessly biased ABC, so it may just be Fake News!!]

  73. Looks like the Shooters’, Fishers’ and Farmers’ Party has taken a seat off Liberal-Lite.

    Wonder if any National Party candidates at all in Queensland will survive the looming federal election?

    The Nationals are committing political suicide by taking their rusted-on voters for granted, On top of that , it seems that those farmers and graziers working in the coal industry can count past ten without having to take their boots off after all, and the National Party has welded itself to jobs!-jobs!-jobs! on one hand and to the Adani planned coal mine on the other. Now those farmers and graziers working in the coal mines don’t have to be brilliant mathematicians to see that when Adani gets into production, they will have plenty of time to work their own properties as one small mine after another closes down. They won’t vote Greens or Labor, of course, not in a blue fit, but it will be interesting to see just who they vote for on the day.

  74. Dunno about Qld, cobber, but down our way quite a few farmers are involved with Landcare, reducing electricity purchases (e.g. in milking sheds), reducing fertiliser inputs, planting more trees ….. generally farming a bit “greener”, however that might be defined.

    Could be, voting Green is a bridge too far, but the thinking’s changing. Slowly but surely. Maybe give an independent candidate a try?? See how it goes.

    Could do with some rain, but.

  75. Kevin Bonham is worth a read as usual.
    Early days.

    Good to see the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers get increased support despite all efforts to smear them.

  76. BTW Jumpy

    At 8.13pm last night you said NSW voters had rejected misogyny.

    Is that true?
    Does it matter?
    Surprised to hear you looking at an election through a gender lens…..

    Not being a Newsouthwelshperson myself, I venture to suggest that any misogyny in the electorate was confounded by:

    & a dud ALP leader

    & dissatisfaction in the bush with the Nationals

    & evidence “on the ground” as they say, of roads and tunnels and railways and hospitals and stadia being built or refurbished or demolished

    & persisting memories of the last – shocker – NSW Labor govt.

    Golly, eh? Actual services to the general public, being delivered by a State Govt quelle surprise!!!

    One day soon, voters may be gender-blind, and look mostly at policies, performance and “the quality of the candidates’ characters”…..

    Martin Luther King hoped for a day when Americans could be blind to skin colour.

    Ditto gender: wouldn’t that be an advance?

  77. I was a bit tongue in cheek with that one Mr A.

    I couldn’t care less about gender in politics.
    But it generally pushed, by some, as the primary reason when women lose elections.

  78. Jumpy, the Bonham link is a beauty, thanks.

    Ambi, Graham is pretty much on the mark, I think. There is visceral hatred of Labor which is synonymous with unions and economic incompetence, wasting money on bludgers etc.

    The Greens are poison because of restrictive tree-clearing laws (they have some justification there), wanting to turn the whole lanscape into a national park, and unjustly blaming farmers for problems on the Great Barrier Reef.

    Most people in the regions would have friends and rellies who vote ON, so ON is pretty much normalised. Clive Palmer had a run, but with the return of the redhead and the closure of the Townsville nickle refinery, his name is mud.

    However, Qld provincial cities are quite large and diverse, so don’t rule Labor out.

  79. Ambigulous: How dare you introduce the wildest dreams of millenarian religion into a perfectly respectable rough-&-tumble brawl over NSW politics. Don’t try to deny it; your own words condemn you: “Golly, eh? Actual services to the general public, being delivered by a State Govt quelle surprise!!!” 🙂

    Yes, a lot of farmers and graziers, even some of the older ones, are picking up new methods and new gear wherever they can, but don’t dare say there is anything “green” about what they are adopting, (unless you are a fair sort of a pugilist); their changes make economic sense or increase production or prevent erosion or lower water consumption or whatever but are definitely nothing to do with those @#$% “greenies”. Many are aware, for instance, of the concerns over the use of glyphosate broad-spectrum weed-killer but they don’t have any affordable and easy-to-use alternatives., yet.

    Jumpy: Thanks for that Bonham link.

    Brian: Have to disagree with you about Clive Palmer. The popularity of defamation actions hinder me commenting further on him. On the other hand, he or his advisors seem to have listened to and analysed the real concerns of the poor, long-suffering, much-maligned boagans and his advertising on TV bring cheers whenever they appear, even from those well aware of what happened at the nickel refinery. Do we have a Trump effect here?

    Must go. Duty calls. Shall return on the new Salon. Cheers.

  80. Graham, personally I struggle to know what the real story is with anything Clive Palmer does. He’s definitely not all bad, I think.

    The only point I’m making is that he made some inroads on national politics when Pauline H seemed a spent force. The PH came back and in some electorates the protest vote simply moved from Palmer to PH.

  81. Then in parts of NSW from PH to SFF.
    Clever move, adding Farmers to their Shooters and Fishers.

    Millenarian religions do not have a monopoly on the word “Golly”, young Graham.

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