Weekly salon 6/6

1. Juice media celebrates

Sorry, that’s a screenshot, not a link. Here the real Honest Government Ads: 5 Year Birthday Special!

Zoë and Ellen present the videos; they actually lip-synch with the voice supplied by Lucy.

A bit of investigation took me to Juice Media home, where we are told about Giordano Nanni, historian, writer and satirist who completed a PhD in history, writing about settler-colonialism. He:


    In 2016 Giordano launched the Honest Government Advert series – which he writes, directs and edits – collaborating with his partner and voice-actor Lucy, and actors Ellen Burbidge and Zoë Amanda Wilson.

Giordano banging out a script:

Here’s Adam Bandt in a 2018 speech warning that the government was trying to enact powers which could silence just about anything they didn’t like, and they definitely didn’t like Juice Media:

Here’s the JuiceMedia YouTube Home with all the videos.

Recent episodes include electric vehicles:

Climate Breakdown from March 2019 is excellent:

    Authorised by the department of adults requiring supervision by children.

I have to finish with Honest Government Ad | We’re F**ked:

authorised by the department of going gentle into that good night.

2. The Speaker speaks

Adam Bandt raised the question as to what is satire, and who decides? Satirist Jonathon Swift was very serious when in 1729 he anonymously published A Modest Proposal For preventing the Children of Poor People From being a Burthen to Their Parents or Country, and For making them Beneficial to the Publick:

    The essay suggests that the impoverished Irish might ease their economic troubles by selling their children as food to rich gentlemen and ladies. This satirical hyperbole mocked heartless attitudes towards the poor, as well as British policy toward the Irish in general.

Question Time in our House of Representative is, according to Katharine Murphy in The Guardian, simply an abomination and a disgrace. That link has a video showing the Speaker, Tony Smith, pulling into line the PM Scott Morrison, the Treasurer Josh Frydenberg and Health Minister Greg Hunt. Here’s what he said to the PM:

    “I’m asking you to return to the question,” Smith said to Morrison.

    “Happy to do that, Mr Speaker,” Morrison soothed.

    Smith promptly called Morrison’s bluff. “I don’t care whether you’re happy or not,” the Speaker said. “You need to return to the question.”

Murphy points out that a few weeks ago there was a report on Question Time from a parliamentary committee covered by Amy Remeikis in A sludge of grandstanding: does question time finally need some answers? Seems they did a survey:

    Of the 3,465 survey responses the committee received back, more than 95% of people wanted question time to change. “Waste of time” and “farce” were among the popular comments.

    Mostly, people are disillusioned with the whole process. They expect questions to be answered, or for the answers to at least be relevant to the question. Anyone who has watched QT knows that’s almost impossible. After all, it’s never been known as answer time.

A lot of what we get is scripted theatre with questions like:

    “Minister, could you update the House on the importance of strong and consistent border protection policies, and, Minister, are you aware of any risks associated with alternative approaches?”

A chance to brag and then dump on the opposition, while staying within standing orders.

The speaker said that if ministers want to talk about “alternative approaches” they need to name them, and this to Josh Frydenberg:

    “if he wants to give a general character assessment of those opposite he’ll need to find another time to do it during the parliamentary day, no matter how much it has been scripted beforehand.”

At least, as we are reminded by Shaun Micallef’s Mad as Hell (Series 13, Episode 2, from 18:55+), our pollies don’t engage in fisticuffs or throw chairs.

Micallef did also highlight Greg Hunt not respecting the Speaker.

There is often more substance in the satire than the material that is being satirized.

3. America remembers the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre

On 31 May President Biden issued A Proclamation on Day Of Remembrance: 100 Years After The 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, beginning with:

    One hundred years ago, a violent white supremacist mob raided, firebombed, and destroyed approximately 35 square blocks of the thriving Black neighborhood of Greenwood in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Families and children were murdered in cold blood. Homes, businesses, and churches were burned. In all, as many as 300 Black Americans were killed, and nearly 10,000 were left destitute and homeless. Today, on this solemn centennial of the Tulsa Race Massacre, I call on the American people to reflect on the deep roots of racial terror in our Nation and recommit to the work of rooting out systemic racism across our country.

    Before the Tulsa Race Massacre, Greenwood was a thriving Black community that had grown into a proud economic and cultural hub. At its center was Greenwood Avenue, commonly known as Black Wall Street. Many of Greenwood’s 10,000 residents were Black sharecroppers who fled racial violence after the Civil War.

In the subsequent decades governments took deliberate action to prevent the community from rebuilding.

Biden’s proclamation ends with:

    NOW, THEREFORE, I, JOSEPH R. BIDEN JR., President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim May 31, 2021, a Day of Remembrance: 100 Years After The 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre. I call upon the people of the United States to commemorate the tremendous loss of life and security that occurred over those 2 days in 1921, to celebrate the bravery and resilience of those who survived and sought to rebuild their lives again, and commit together to eradicate systemic racism and help to rebuild communities and lives that have been destroyed by it.

    IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this thirty-first day of May, in the year of our Lord two thousand twenty-one, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and forty-fifth.


A brief video from the BBC tells the story.

Here are Exhibits from the Tulsa Historical Society and Museum.

A 1921 Tulsa Race Riot Centennial Commission has been set up.

Now Tom Hanks urges US educators to teach students about Tulsa race massacre.

Hanks says he studied American History for four years when he was young, but not a page about Tulsa.


    “Tulsa was never more than a city on the prairie.

    “The Oklahoma Land Rush got some paragraphs … but the 1921 burning out of the Black population that lived there was never mentioned. Nor … was anti-Black violence on large and small scales, especially between the end of Reconstruction and the victories of the civil rights movement.

    “… Many students like me were told that the lynching of Black Americans was tragic but not that these public murders were commonplace and often lauded by local papers and law enforcement.”

Meanwhile State GOP Lawmakers Try to Limit Teaching About Race, Racism

Republican-controlled legislatures across the country are advancing measures to limit how students can be taught about race and racism.

    At least 16 states are considering or have signed into law bills that would limit the teaching of certain ideas linked to “critical race theory,” which seeks to reframe the narrative of American history. Its proponents argue that federal law has preserved the unequal treatment of people on the basis of race and that the country was founded on the theft of land and labor.

    Those states include Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Iowa, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and West Virginia.

    The latest state to implement a law is Tennessee, where the governor this past week signed a bill to ban the teaching of critical race theory in schools.

Only in America(!?)

See also List of Indian massacres in North America.

4. Warrigal Creek where the water turned red in 1843

Here in Oz we have ‘The water turned red’: Remembering the Indigenous victims of the c:

    When dozens of Indigenous people were shot dead at Warrigal Creek in 1843, the water turned red with their blood, says Stephen Thorpe, a member of the same Gunnai tribe.

    A gang of white settlers on horseback pinned Indigenous men, women and children against the bank of the creek, in South Gippsland, and opened fire.

    Those who escaped into the water were shot as they came up for air. A boy who was shot in the eye was forced to lead the murderers to other camps, where more Gunnai people were killed.

    Gunnai and Gunditjmara man Stephen Thorpe is passionate about encouraging non-Aboriginal Victorians to be courageous in confronting uncomfortable truths about our state’s history.

    Today, few Victorians know about this slaughter of as many as 150 people – a crime for which no one was arrested. There are no plaques at the now peaceful spot on a farm 40 kilometres south of Sale and 200 kilometres east of Melbourne.

    But there are more than a dozen monuments in Gippsland to pastoralist Angus McMillan, who is widely believed to have led this and other massacres. Until 2018, a federal electorate was named after him.

Wikipedia has a List of massacres of Indigenous Australians.

We have much to think about having just come through National Reconciliation Week.

130 thoughts on “Weekly salon 6/6”

  1. Interesting question:

    What was the deadliest day in US history?

    In 1790 the population was only 4 million, and in 1918 a third of what it is now.

    There are plenty of contenders, but adjusting for population, the author thinks it would be one day in October 1918 when the Spanish flu was raging.

  2. Australia was not the only place where the English were responsible for massacre’s. Ireland and Scotland were among many were on the English hit list. One of my ancestors was supposed to have been the only survivor of an English massacre at her village.
    Most Australian’s would have ancestors who survived war, massacre’s and violence not all that far in the past.

  3. Seems to me that there are so few acts of racism in Australia and the US that they need to be fabricated or dragged forward from the past.

    I do realise that some folk crave racist incidents to spout virtue signals to the point that demand has vastly outstripped supply.

  4. Jumpy: “Seems to me that there are so few acts of racism in Australia and the US that they need to be fabricated or dragged forward from the past.”
    Right now in the US there is some pretty awful stuff going on in areas such as making it very hard for Afro-Americans to vote. In particular there seems to be a rush at the moment of this sort of activity in some Republican controlled states such as Texas. (The party that freed the slaves seems to have slipped a bit.) That is just one clear example of current racism in the US.
    If you aren’t convinced try reading: “26 simple charts to show friends and family who aren’t convinced racism is still a problem in America.” https://www.businessinsider.com.au/us-systemic-racism-in-charts-graphs-data-2020-6?r=US&IR=T
    My strong guess is that a similar set of charts for Australia would look somewhat similar.
    I have certainly come across racist attitudes and behavior when I lived in places where there was a significant Aboriginal population.

  5. Jumpy, I’ll ignore that, except to point out that there is a difference between “acts of racism” and “massacres” plus 150 massacres in Australia post European settlement is not a small number.

    John, I think all most European colonists had a bad record in the 19th and early 20th centuries. I’d thought of including Germany, which was in the news last week as in Germany officially recognises colonial-era Namibia genocide.

      Reparations were agreed to after five years of negotiations in the form of aid over 30 years. In general the reaction is that €1.1bn is not enough and some regard it as an insult – Viewpoint: Why Germany’s Namibia genocide apology is not enough

      German colonisers killed tens of thousands of Ovaherero and Nama people in Namibia between 1904 and 1908. This amounted to some 80% of the Ovaherero and over 40% of the Nama. Their land and livestock were also confiscated.

    Looks like Germany was trying to avoid proper reparations. The affected communities were not even consulted. In the circumstances this was a bit much:

      Foreign Minister Heiko Maas said his country was asking Namibia and victims’ descendants for forgiveness.
  6. Saw a comment somewhere to the effect that if Belgium ever paid fair reparations they’d have to sign the whole country over to the Congolese.
    “Western Civilisation” has a lot to answer for.

    As for contemporary racism in Australia, it has been said that if you want to observe it in action just watch Ernie Dingo try to catch a cab in Sydney on a Saturday night.

  7. zoot, in the past week we have had Adam Goodes reject an AFL hall of fame nomination.

    He was booed by thousands at 17 matches in a row, apparently because of his race, and the AFL did SFA.

    When he retired, he didn’t say why, just ‘it was time’ and this time he didn’t want his refusal publicised before the awards, but it appeared on the front page of one of Rupert’s rags.

  8. See Brian, there’s no racism in Australia, just these uppity blackfellas making trouble.

  9. I’m not saying there is no racist sentiment in Australia.
    To the contrary, there are those that think Aborigines are so dumb and weak that only vastly superior whites can lift them up closer to the lofty heights they themselves dwell.
    To them, having removed all institutional obstacles to success and wealth are not enough, Aborigines are infantile and only with their nurturing can Aboriginal folk grow up.

    As for Ernie Dingo, aren’t almost all cab drivers in Sydney Indians.

    And Goodes was booed, in a sport that rates toughness a virtue, because he had a cry when a 13 year old girl supporter of the opposing team called him an ape. There are no connections between apes and Aboriginal folk unless one craves ridiculous, convoluted false parallels in order to see racism where it doesn’t exist. Manufactured racism is what that is.

  10. Zoot, I’m sure there are plenty of things that you and I can agree on.

    One being that trannies should compete in any sport they want against anyone they want on any day they feel they can win.
    One step closer to the end of gender apartheid in sport and closer to one United platform of meritocracy!!

    Are you with me Brother ?

  11. Jumpy: “To the contrary, there are those that think Aborigines are so dumb and weak that only vastly superior whites can lift them up closer to the lofty heights they themselves dwell.
    To them, having removed all institutional obstacles to success and wealth are not enough,”
    You seem to have a very sneering, limited idea of what it takes to make large steps. Also a very limited idea about what people want to do and the doubts they might have.
    Not everyone wants to leave their culture to become a stranger in a very different culture that speaks a very foreign language. A culture they don’t really understand and their family has doubts about.
    My take is that, in general, Aborigines are the only ones who have the power to decide what they as individuals and communities want to do. Also quite often the only ones who do have the power to make real change.
    Also that too many Aborigines have been conned into believing that only someone else has the power to solve their problems.

  12. Also that too many Aborigines have been conned into believing that only someone else has the power to solve their problems.

    Agreed. “ Infantilised “ is the term.
    Who do you think is doing the most infantilising of Aboriginal folk do you think and how do we, as a Nation, stop them ?

  13. Jumpy: For some interesting stats on Aboriginal education: https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/education/aboriginal-students-in-higher-studies-at-university
    Lots of stuff including:
    “complete a PhD. [3]
    Number of Aboriginal people with a university degree in Australia in 2014 [4]. Same figure in 2010: 25,000 [5]; in 2006: 20,000; in 1991: 3,600. [6]
    Source: Aboriginal students in higher studies at university – Creative Spirits, retrieved from https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/education/aboriginal-students-in-higher-studies-at-university
    The number of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander persons aged 15-64 attending university or another tertiary institution more than doubled from 7,000 in 2006 (2.6 per cent of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population) to 15,400 in 2016 (3.9 per cent).23 Oct 2017
    Progress is being made.

  14. Who do you think is doing the most infantilising of Aboriginal folk do you think and how do we, as a Nation, stop them ?

    No names, no pack drill, but it’s usually people who make comments like this

    And Goodes was booed, in a sport that rates toughness a virtue, because he had a cry when a 13 year old girl supporter of the opposing team called him an ape. There are no connections between apes and Aboriginal folk unless one craves ridiculous, convoluted false parallels in order to see racism where it doesn’t exist. Manufactured racism is what that is.

    Not sure how we stop them – any ideas?

  15. Jumpy: “Who do you think is doing the most infantilizing of Aboriginal folk do you think and how do we, as a Nation, stop them ?”
    To me someone like Jumpy who says “To them, having removed all institutional obstacles to success and wealth are not enough.” is a best ignorant re what it takes to recover from prolonged discrimination or learn how to deal with a very foreign culture. Getting the balance right is not always easy.

  16. Jumpy: “Aboriginal heroes from early years of colonization the focus of research project” https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-09/aboriginal-heroes-history-research-federation-university/100197642
    “A new research project at Ballarat’s Federation University is collating stories of Aboriginal heroism during the early years of British occupation.
    Led by historian Fred Cahir, the project is uncovering hundreds of stories of Aboriginal people saving the lives of settler colonists.
    Dr Cahir said it was important to recognise these instances of “Aboriginal heroic acts”.
    “Generally speaking, most Australians feel that Aboriginal people had no role in the development of Australia as a nation,” he said.
    “Clearly the research indicates they had an integral role in saving us from bushfire, from floods, tracking our lost children, our lost stock — indeed, we relied on Aboriginal expertise and skill.”
    At that time it was the Europeans being helped to adjust to a new environment and Aborigines helping the ignorant.

  17. I spent the first part of the night watching some of the best rugby league I’ve ever seen. Happens it was the men in blue doing it. See
    Roam if you want to: Turbo’s effort leaves Origin greats in awe.

    Turbo Tom Trbojevic scored three tries, to make it 8 in 5 matches. Thing is, they all played well. A team of champions playing as a team. If you picked an Australian side tomorrow it could have zero Queenslanders.

  18. On another matter, Melbourne woman tests positive for COVID-19 on Queensland’s Sunshine Coast.

    A woman who travelled from Melbourne to the Sunshine Coast while the Victorian capital was in lockdown has tested positive for COVID-19, Queensland’s Health Minister Yvette D’Ath has confirmed.
    Key points:

    Victoria’s lockdown had already started when the woman left the state on June 1

    Police are investigating how and why the woman and her husband entered Queensland

    Authorities say there are multiple exposure sites across Queensland and NSW

    Ms D’Ath said a 44-year-old woman left Victoria on June 1, travelled through New South Wales and crossed the Queensland border on June 5

    The woman’s husband has now tested positive.

    The state is not locking down, even aged care facilities etc. The emphasis is on contact tracing, and on vaccinating in the Sunshine Coast area.

    The couple have been staying with parents who have tested negative.

    Police are investigating, and the prospect is that they will be charged for breaking the current health orders in relation to people coming from Victoria. In case people are wondering, police are only carrying out spot border checks.

    The chief health officer has said that the evidence indicates the woman has been a weak spreader, so we are hoping for the best.

  19. The Courier Mail says today probably pay-walled) that the Victorians were moving to the Sunshine Coast for the husband to start a new job.

      It’s understood the woman and her partner only came forward for testing because the partner needed a negative Covid test result for work purposes.

      Authorities have deemed it sheer luck that the case was caught.

      It’s understood the woman lost her sense of smell on June 3, which is a symptom of the virus.

    They entered Qld on June 5.

    The claim is that they used the Goondiwindi route to avoid detection. It will all come out in the wash.

      It’s believed the couple may have chosen to travel via Goondiwindi because of a strong police presence, including mobile patrols and automated number plate recognition, on the Gold Coast border.

      Gold Coast police Superintendent Rhys Wildman said officers were performing up to 100 random intercepts of suspect vehicles daily at the border, and turning around several people each day.

    We keep seeing Gladys B on the box saying that we have to keep our borders open and live with the virus. There are 13 exposure sites where people now have to quarantine, many without pay.

  20. On the fall of Us democracy the Republicans have been busy: “14 GOP-Controlled States Have Passed Laws to Impede Free Elections.” https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2021/06/14-gop-controlled-states-have-passed-laws-to-impede-free-elections/?utm_source=mj-newsletters&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily-newsletter-06-10-2021
    While GOP-controlled legislatures rush to make it harder for Democratic constituencies to vote, they are also intensifying their control over how elections are run and how votes are counted, after Trump tried to overturn the 2020 election results. Twenty-four new laws have been passed in 14 states this year that will allow state legislatures to “politicize, criminalize, and interfere in election administration,” according to a report released Thursday by three voting rights groups, States United Democracy Center, Law Forward, and Protect Democracy. Overall, 216 bills have been introduced in 41 states to achieve these ends. ” Scary reading. Reminds me of how a number of Australian states bent the rules used to keep governments in power despite losing the 2PP vote.

  21. John, that is beyond sad in the land of the free.

    I’ll put up a few links tomorrow.

  22. Jumpy @5.22,

    My comment to your otherwise positive contribution is in “ on any day they feel they can win.” Participating isn’t primarily about winning, its about participating to exercise body mind and spirit (feelings). Else every event would have only one participant, the one most certain to win.

    On another thought path I’m curious what your reaction to this piece of history https://youtu.be/2Sim0oAZL98 is.

  23. John, you’re falling for disinformation again.
    There is nothing in these democratic voting protections that disenfranchise black folk or Dems.

    Unless of course those groups are too stupid to get ID or carry a water bottle.

    No, they are to reduce vote harvesting, ensure only American Citizens votes count, trace back illegitimate votes and restore faith in their electoral system.

  24. No, they are to reduce vote harvesting, ensure only American Citizens votes count, trace back illegitimate votes and restore faith in their electoral system.

    But there is not a scintilla of evidence that any of this happened.
    The ex-president lost because the ghost of Hugo Chavez changed the votes in the machines before feeding the paper ballots (which came from China) to chickens which were then incinerated while the Italian satellites continued the digital attack and truckloads of false ballots were imported from somewhere. His representatives have told us this.
    How is such an overwhelming attack foiled by forbidding people giving water to people waiting to vote?

  25. Zoot, you’re a joke of a commenter, negative value waste.
    Go look at Project Veritas audiovisual evidence of ballot harvesting of noncitizens and citizens alike.Actual video evidence of perpetrators bragging about breaking electoral laws on camera.

    Just because you bury your head, ostrich like, into leftist lala land doesn’t stop reality being so.

  26. Jumpy: “Unless of course those groups are too stupid to get ID or carry a water bottle.” And the state government provides so little voting capacity in areas where people support their opponents that people have to que for hours to vote.
    Explain to me why providing food and water is a problem?

  27. Go look at Project Veritas audiovisual evidence of ballot harvesting of noncitizens and citizens alike

    How many? I believe it falls well short of the number required to invalidate the result, which has been certified as correct.
    Anybody eligible for a ballot has to be registered (like our electoral roll). Apparently non-citizens are eligible in your world.
    That surprises me. But as a member of the cult you obviously are closer to the action than I am. How about those Jewish space lasers hey?
    And now that I’ve had my Covid shots I’m really pleased they included Google Maps in the microchips, makes life so convenient even though I’m magnetic and the keys sticking to my chin are a bit of a turn off

  28. And for anyone who thinks Jumpy may have a point Wikipedia is quite scathing about Project Veritas.

    Project Veritas is an American far-right activist group founded by James O’Keefe in 2010. The group produces deceptively edited videos of its undercover operations, which use secret recordings in an effort to discredit mainstream media organizations and progressive groups. Project Veritas also uses entrapment to generate bad publicity for its targets, and has propagated disinformation and conspiracy theories in its videos and operations.

    Citations (E…Vid…Ence) are included on the Wikipedia page.
    Maybe Jumpy can try looking outside his comfort zone instead of burying his head, ostrich like, into fascist lala land.

  29. It’s a bit of a distraction TBH, but I’ve never studied political science or American history, so I went looking for the US foundational values, which I thought were based universal rights, specifically the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    What I found was that these soaring aspirations were specifically rejected in formulating the constitution. They didn’t make the cut.

    So I think I’ll need to expand that in a post.

  30. Returning to the issue of people carrying COVID into our fair state, I think a couple of things need to be said.

    Firstly, the action of the couple caused over 300 people, mostly on the Sunny Coast, to have to undergo quarantine having been identified as close contacts or contacts of contacts. Many of these are workers who will miss two weeks pay with no recompense, and for some that will be difficult.

    Over 900 people have been identified as having been in the exposure sites within the operative time band and have had to get tested.

    There is quite a lot of anger in the community over this. Thankfully, the names and faces of this couple have not been splattered on the front page of the Courier Mail, unlike what happened last year when three young women intentionally flouted the rules by going to Melbourne when they said they were going to Sydney.

    The police are declining to interview them until they are declared free of infection. I think they want to do the interviews face to face without masks.

  31. Oh here we go again. Jumpy’s project veritas. Typical Conservative con job. The last time Jumpy said “look at all the evidence”, I actually did. What is it all about? The US holds thousands of elections each year for school boards, police chiefs, fire chiefs, judges,,,,,,,, and in each election there are anomalies, and the occasional scammer (usually always Republican chasing their greed). So when you compile that into a list it is a large number election irregularities but as a percentage of all elections it is a tiny part of one percent.

    What Jumpy and his veritas buddies are claiming by inference and omission is that these thousands of anomalies are actually from federal and state elections, and is demonstrably false.

    The people most fooled by this are Republican voters which Republican officials know are massively stupid as demonstrated by Trump’s, though now depleting, popularity.

    There is no way to be nice about this.

  32. There are quite a few auto in corrections there. I typed it properly, but it seems that the iPad auto editor is Republican.

  33. bilb, I’ve tidied it up a bit. Hope I got it right.

      The people most fooled by this are Republican voters which Republican officials know are massively stupid…

    Hillary Clinton called them “deplorables”. Not a smart thing to do, but was she wrong?

  34. Yes Brian, very wrong.
    I’m sure Emperor Biden’s cloths look fantastic despite his nakedness.

    Ever wonder why Biden got zero primary votes in his first 2 attempts ?
    Or most pathetic Presidential candidate, first to drop out, got to be VP ?

    Worth a little bit of thinking about if one is serious.

    Or resort to Wikipedia, hahaha.

  35. Worth a little bit of thinking about if one is serious.

    Of course! How stupid of me. It was the Italian satellites wasn’t it.

  36. I don’t think you’re stupid zoot, you’re just sure of things that just ain’t so.
    Don’t blame me for fooling you.

  37. jumpy, I haven’t got time for your ‘argument by pronouncement’ MO right now.

  38. Brian, ok, take your time figuring out if half the folk that didn’t vote for a criminal like Hillary are ” racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic” deplorables or not.

    Happy to wait.

    Given the Harris/ Biden mess so far I’m sure they feel vindicated.

  39. Jumpy: “Given the Harris/ Biden mess so far I’m sure they feel vindicated.” Yes. If you believe the US is badly overpopulated I guess what Biden has done to reduce COVID deaths is disastrous.
    What else has he done wrong apart from beating Trump?

  40. What is this “Harris/Biden mess” you speak of?
    Given your inability to supply any proof of your pronouncements it appears you’re just sure of things that just ain’t so.

  41. Brian,
    You just analysed that perfectly, framing Trumps main method in three words.

    Argument by Pronouncement

    … and the second phase

    Facts by Pronouncement

    It’s a whole system when you think about it.

    Trump makes a lie (a pronouncement) and phrases it as “people are telling me … “ “I hear it everywhere”, then he looks for a sycophant to nod in agreement (there was the famous Birx squirming bleach injection down gaze fail), then he tries to cement his lie into place with “everyone knows its true”. Then he tries to distance himself from creating the lie with “I don’t know if its true, but if everyone is saying it then it, ……. (Looking around again for nods of agreement) … must be true”. Then comes the bullying.

    Trump is in that special class of most despicable people alive, and the consequences of their being are …. grave, though unfortunately never, or at least so far, theirs.

    Right now Jumpy is trying to distance himself from his Ayn Rand connection with bluster. It’s the deflection tactic.

  42. “Want to know how much a job pays? Here’s the income for hundreds of Australian occupations.” https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-13/income-averages-for-different-occupations-jobs/100209972
    Women do noticeably worse than men in the same profession but, it is conceivable some of it is due to age differences.
    While you are at it look at: “Millionaires who paid no tax and the richest and poorest postcodes revealed.”https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-08/tax-stats-ato-millionaires-richest-poorest-postcodes/100197694
    Some of the millionaires pay no tax because they have good tax lawyers but others may simply be retirees who no longer make much taxable income.

  43. So Jumpy?

    Care to elaborate on your passion for Ayn Rand and everything Libertarian?

    Here is a Ayn Rand’s great inspiration, a young man fearlessly expressing his individuality and passion for freedom, while also demanding social assistance to cover for his failings, ….. as Libertarians routinely do (I need the state to bail out my failing bank, we need for there to be no taxes so we can actually make some money).


    You should read everything Libertarian in this context, then it makes sense.

  44. John
    There are thousands more kids in cages at the border that Biden put Harris in charge of and she won’t even go there.
    Biden restored millions in “ aid “ to Palestinians and all of a sudden they’ve got thousands of rockets to fire at Israel.
    Biden’s son keeps gallivanting around the world picking up bags of cash while on crack and saying the n word with impunity.
    Inflation is skyrocketing.
    They’re demanding masks still while cuddling unmasked at the G7 and Jill ( not a doctor) is creating policy unelected.
    Crime is skyrocketing across the board.

    Please, other than having the media and Silicon Valley cover up for him, what has he made not worse?

  45. Nice line of BS there Jumpy.
    None of it supported with any E…Vid…Ence.
    And all of it false.
    This is what happens when you depend on sites like Project Veritas, the original fake news factory, and the other trash pages which are lying to you day in and day out. But I guess you’re hanging out for Marjorie Taylor Greene to be President like most of your sources.

  46. Project Veritas has never lost a defamation case against the “ news “ sources you trust.

    A lot of the citation links on Wikipedia have been retracted or corrected. But they succeeded in duping the gullible hate filled leftists, as was there purpose.

  47. Biden’s son keeps gallivanting around the world picking up bags of cash while on crack and saying the n word with impunity.

    So what? Biden’s son is not part of the Administration. You might as well blame Mar-a-largo man for his son’s cocaine habit.

    Inflation is skyrocketing.

    Bullshit. (In Jumpyworld we still call bullshit bullshit don’t we?) It’s not. “Consumer prices increased 0.6% in May after increasing 0.8% in April. The increase was primarily driven by a 7.3% increase in used car and truck prices.”

    They’re demanding masks still while cuddling unmasked at the G7

    Demanding? Legislation has been passed? Bullshit. They’re suggesting and a very wise suggestion too.

    and Jill ( not a doctor) is creating policy unelected.

    Dr Jill Biden (yes, she is a doctor) is creating what policy? Is it anything like the policy created by those unelected members of the Cabinet? More bullshit.

    Crime is skyrocketing across the board.


    Please, other than having the media and Silicon Valley cover up for him, what has he made not worse?

    Well, the Covid situation for a start. Infections and deaths are dropping as a result of his competent administration.
    And the economical situation. People are quite pleased they’re finally able to afford food thanks to the Covid relief package. This leads into increased economic activity and a healthier economy (no matter what Sowell says).
    The US is no longer a laughing stock around the world and the allies are welcoming a President who puts them ahead of our enemies. I’m sure there’s more but that’s enough to go on with.

  48. Project Veritas has never lost a defamation case against the “ news “ sources you trust.

    A quick search reveals that they don’t appear to have won any yet either. The NY Times and Twitter cases are ongoing.

  49. Jumpy, aka JumpnmCar (from his Ayn Rand days), aka deflecto, aka Gaslighter, aka TrumpNought, perhaps soon Veritastless

    Is firing well today. So much deflection and projection.

    I see you’ve got this zoot. I’m transferring my energy to your energy shield banks ………….. NOW.

    May the Force be with you!

  50. Nearly missed this

    A lot of the citation links on Wikipedia have been retracted or corrected.

    More bullshit. You could go into business as a fertilizer supplier.

  51. Your link,

    “That means consumer prices increased by more than 5% over the course of a year—the sharpest such increase since August 2008. “

    Mask mandates are still in force in several Democrat cities fool.
    But not the G7 junket. Biden is a hypocrite, but he honeymooned with communists like Sanders did so I suppose that’s a plus for you.

    The China virus is being dealt with by vaccines created under trump. Biden has done fuck all but sat by whilst the trump rollout continued. Trump had 1 million shots per day when he left office from a starting point of zero with no vaccines.

    G’nite troll bot.

  52. Biden has done fuck all but sat by whilst the trump rollout continued.

    More bullshit.

  53. but he honeymooned with communists

    Like the seven Republicans (Sen. Richard Shelby (Ala.), Steve Daines (Mont.), John Thune (S.D.), John Kennedy (La.), Jerry Moran (Kan.) and John Hoeven (N.D.), and Rep. Kay Granger (R-Texas)) who spent July 4 2018 in Moscow posing for propaganda pictures?

  54. Oh BS Jumpy,

    The Astra Zeneker Vaccine was developed in the UK, the best one the Pfizer was develop in Germany under Angela Merkel by Turkish immigrants who Trump would have had deported had they been in the US, or exterminated in a second term, the Johnston and Johnston was developed in the Netherlands, but the Moderna vaccine is the only vaccine developed in the US.


    Trump threw a bit of money around, as little as possible, then virtually implied he had done the development work himself ……. with his big brain. Then Trump tried to make all vaccines pledged to the US and only available through the US so he could claim it all came from home and take a profit. Con artist monopolist.

    How gullible are you Jumpy? Making massive misinformation takes like that throws doubt on your credibility as a builder. Is there anything that you have built that is more organised than a bon fire waiting to be lit?

  55. Jumpy: Having a nice day are we?
    In the mood you are in if I said Trump was marvelous you would think I was running a complex devious left wing plot to poke fun at you and the Tea Party. (Someone should tell the Tea Party that the tea that started the US revolution was the real stuff, not pot.)
    Sweet innocent me would never do such a thing.

  56. I’ve been told Peta Credlin is going to get a gong on Queen’s Birthday for work she did with Tony Abbott.

    The credibility of the awards system takes another hit!

  57. Addendum:

    Biden has done fuck all but sat by whilst the trump rollout continued.

    That would be the rollout that promised 20 million doses by the end of 2020 and actually delivered fewer than three million.
    Face it Jumpy, Mar-a-Lago man couldn’t organise a pissup in a brewery. Everything he touches dies, including hopefully the Republican Party.

  58. Just had a long talk with my sister (she doesn’t do short ones) who is in aged care in Miles. Everyone is double jabbed, the staff are jabbed, and visitors are not let in unless they are jabbed.

    Other than that things are getting back to ‘normal’ with activities games etc. except now they are having team competitions with teams from other centres.

    The centre has its own bus to take people for a drive. Western Downs local government has done well by its older citizens.

  59. Tonight Four Corners will be compulsory watching for me. From promos Louise Milligan is going to take a look at QAnon in Australia, and how close PM Scotty M is to it.

    Crikey looks into Dangerous liaisons: a short history of the PM, Tim Stewart and QAnon in Australia. It begins:

      Tim Stewart and Scott Morrison go back a long way — 30 years to be exact. The two met at their local Baptist church in Sydney’s Maroubra, with the men’s wives (Jenny and Lynelle) becoming best mates.

      The two couples remained close. Morrison’s ascension to the prime ministership in August 2018, however, marked a transformative moment in the lives of the two men. Stewart’s embrace of the fringe QAnon conspiracy theory became more and more pronounced as the movement gained in numbers and political influence under US president Donald Trump.

      Stewart’s standing in the Australian and international QAnon community grew exponentially. Unrestricted on Twitter, the Morrison family friend became a leading figure, with his spiritual pronouncements on the “Great Awakening” and the “coming of the storm” — end of days concepts that would mean the end of the all-powerful secret group of satanic paedophiles that runs the world, as QAnon has it. (Q is said to be an anonymous senior figure in the former Trump administration providing clues to followers via the dark web’s 8chan (since rebranded as 8kun) message board.)

      By late last year, Stewart had disappeared far down the rabbit hole of the fast-spreading conspiracy movement that a year earlier had been classified by the FBI as a domestic terror threat in the US. The FBI cited instances of planned and actual QAnon-linked violence, most of it driven by baseless accusations of satanic paedophile activity.

    In the run-up to the US elections last year, Stewart’s growing status in the QAnon movement was confirmed when he and his son appeared as special guests on Patriot Transition Voice, a leading QAnon site in the US.

    The article ends with:

      Stewart’s move to the extremes has become increasingly uncomfortable for the prime minister.

      Crikey understands the Morrison and Stewart families were originally intending to holiday together in Hawaii at the end of 2019, before Stewart’s QAnon links became known via The Guardian, Crikey and Twitter.

      It is not, after all, a good look to have Australia’s leading QAnon figure just one step away from The Lodge — especially when newly installed US President Joe Biden has ordered more action on QAnon and other conspiracy movements.

    I understand Stewart claims he has influence with the PM. Without doubt, the PM will say tonight that he does not.

    There is a real question for me as to how well Scott Morrison knows himself. In my opinion, not very well, but on this one I’d be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    My opinion may change after seeing the show.

  60. In tonight’s Four Corners The Great Awakening: a family divided by QAnon I’d hoped for more about QAnon in Australia, and could have done with less about the family.

    Sad for the family, but if we elected a religious fundamentalist God-botherer, I’m afraid what we saw goes with the territory. A shame the PM’s mate turned out to be a nutter, and his son’s mate a nasty nutter.

    However, Morrison seems to have made a break at the end of 2019, when the Hawaii trip was done and Lynelle Stewart stopped working for Jenny.

    I think the use of the term “ritual” or “ritualised” in the PM’s speech saying sorry for child abuse was fortuitous. If anyone associated with the writing knew its coded status with QAnon then it would not have been used.

    Unless someone was playing silly buggers and slipped it in, but it’s usually a stuff-up rather than a conspiracy.

    There was a revealing segment on ABC RN Drive where Patricia Karvelas talked to Louise Milligan about the making of the show.

    There was certainly plenty fact and legal-checking, but the disappointing bit was about how Milligan’s reputation was trashed by her former bosses at The Australian. Apparently Karvelas and Milligan both worked at the OZ, Milligan was highly regarded, they gave her a great send-off, did not want to lose her etc etc.

    Karvelas verifies this, but now they have turned on her, trying to bring her down with stuff she says is simply not true.

    I didn’t read the Oz, but I’m inclined to believe her.

  61. Bilb, I’ll look at this at more length tonight.

    Thing is, nationally the ALP is in election mode in the undeclared election. Not a time for rational consideration of policies.

    The ALP has promised to set up a National Housing Finance and Investment Corporation (NHFIC).

    This is a way of funding public housing off-budget.

    I honestly think the best bet would be to lobby that body, rather than get a policy such as you are proposing mixed up in the election campaign, where it would almost certainly be subject to a scare campaign.

    Meanwhile there is something happening in NSW which might be worth trying to influence. I haven’t had time to investigate.

  62. Brian: Re housing price rises a key part of the real problem is that the RB’s low interest rates are driving hyper inflation in the housing market. Not helped at all by loosening in bank lending rules.
    Among other things the federal government has the power to tighten up lending rules.
    Problem is that the reserve is currently stuck with a very simplistic tool for dealing with slow economic growth. We need systems that can be more targeted and/or limit the sectional damage caused by interest cuts.
    What Rudd did to boost the economy was far smarter than crude interest rate cuts. Key parts of what he did included:
    1. Putting money into the hands of low income earners who would spend it.
    2. Doing it in lump sums rather than long term changes.
    There is going to be a GFC style crash as soon as the reserve raises interest rates because of all the low interest lending for housing.

  63. Brian: The other thing that has happened is that the average house size has doubled to a massive 240m2 since the 1950’s. At the same time, m2 per resident has tripled to a massive 87m2 per resident. (The highest figure in the world.)
    The rich get more decadent and the poor are struggling to find affordable accomodation.
    Then there is the higher energy/CO2 footprint of larger houses.

  64. The Boston Globe is publishing a series on how to prevent a repeat of the last presidency. I haven’t checked it out yet but Rachel Maddow has a preview.
    Unfortunately with the Republican death cult sure to oppose any presidential accountability, I fear nothing will change.

  65. Good point, JohnD, on the house sizes. The only extra thing to note with that is the amount of material houses are built from has reduced …. In some areas. Roofs these days are far stronger that the one on our 1965 house in the Blue Mountains.

    Brian I would have thought that an election would be the best time to show a bold plan, but such a plan would have had to have been well thought through an election. The fact is that Labor will never come up with a solution. They are incapable of creativity. I wash my hands of it, and will not bring it up again.

    Zoot, I did see that Maddow/Boston Globe piece and saved it in my history file of important moments in history. It’s pretty extreme, isn’t it. That is how bad things have to get before there is any recognition of failings.

    Look for McConnells boating on how he will take every future opportunity to purge the Supreme Court of all Liberals. Psychopaths, what can i say.

  66. Tiny houses are one way young people can afford real estate, but experts say scrapping stamp duty would help more: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-15/experts-say-govt-housing-schemes-limited-some-turn-to-tiny-homes/100213142
    For Lucy and Jonty, the cost of their tiny house was around $120,000, including solar panels.
    That compares to the median Hobart dwelling value of $574,543, according to CoreLogic figures from May.
    I think we could do a lot better if we were to put some effort. Some of the tiny house costs would go into the requirement to have wheels.
    Like to tap Jumpy’s knowledge.

  67. John, there is much to say and I won’t cover it all.
    Firstly, stamp duty is not a federal tax on home ownership but there are literally hundreds of others.
    Secondly, the price comparison is misleading, one has land price included.
    Thirdly, they got a very expensive caravan that may be aesthetically pleasing to them but is far less practical.
    Also , one complaint from some Karen to the Council Gubermint about “ permanent dwelling regulations “ would see them threatened with fines and or imprisonment.
    And then there are GFC causing Gubermint gawantees that promote “ too small to fail and too big to fail “ Clinton legislation.
    ( bonus, who was Clinton’s HUD guru at the time ? None other than Andrew Cuomo, the New York dud. )

    Look, I’ve investigated a project possibility for 32 , 5 1/2 acre, off grid, unserviced homes on old sugar cane land within 20 mins ish from the CBD. Everyone in Gubermint, law and in the game said I’d be in for a decade long legal battle with little chance of approval.

    How about you get a green taskforce together to growl loudly at council ( subsidiaries of State Gubermints ) to piss off out of the way and stop telling folk how they MUST live dependently and expensively.

  68. And then there are GFC causing Gubermint gawantees that promote “ too small to fail and too big to fail “ Clinton legislation.
    ( bonus, who was Clinton’s HUD guru at the time ? None other than Andrew Cuomo, the New York dud. )

    What relevance does this have to Australia? Or have we become a colony of the USA while I wasn’t looking?

    Look, I’ve investigated a project possibility for 32 , 5 1/2 acre, off grid, unserviced homes on old sugar cane land within 20 mins ish from the CBD.

    Were you aiming at first home buyers? Sounds like the average block would have been a bit pricey.

  69. bilb, the cycle for policy formation within the ALP seems to be a three-year period climaxing in a party conference. Nationally the conference was at the end of March, and in Qld it was last weekend. However, the cutoff time for getting new policies in was about the time you brought it up.

    I don’t have the contacts or leverage to get a creative idea like that up at the last gasp.

    There may be some possibility of lobbing an idea into the Qld pool, but everyone will be distracted until the national election is over. I was going to first try the idea out on my brother, who was a minor property tycoon for a while (very minor), and a bloke I encountered in our local branch who has been involved in town planning and public housing.

    However, I have also the impression that nationally and in Qld they play things pretty safe. I was actually going to suggest you might try the NSW Liberal government. Something floated across my conciousness about NSW housing and a name which I have now identified as Dominic Perrottet, the Treasurer.

    I did a bit of a search, and came up with this this media release from Rob Stokes, minister for planning and public spaces, which is broadly about tax concessions to encourage rental housing development.

    In it he says “it’s critical our planning system is responsive and flexible to new development models”.

    Might be worth a go.

  70. John, in your link they quote the gigantic ABC Australia Talks survey.

    I know they were careful about their sample weighting to reflect all of us, but it strikes me that every responder shares one characteristic – they were prepared to answer 600 questions.

    I’m not sure I know too many people who would be prepared to do that.

  71. Some of you may remember Paul Burns from the LP days. He was a historian and avid researcher, while afflicted by several serious health issues. The year when LP folded he was researching the American independence war, feeding us snippets of his research. Shortly before he was about to go to the US to do research he fell seriously ill and disappeared from LP for a while, only to contact us from hospital just a few days before Mark B finally closed LP.

    Last year I reconnected with Paul B on Facebook, where he told me that he was not able to finish that book because he can’t travel to do his research. Instead he was well into his research for an other book about the state of Roman Empire around 2nd-3rd century. A fascinating period where the Roman society underwent major changes, which has some significant relevance to the state of society and politics today. Paul was one of those historians who did not had to spell it out, he may provided context but let primary sources do the talking. In his almost daily FB post he took us through ancient Alexandria to Rome itself all the while providing fascinating insights from his research.

    Paul was an inspiration to me how he handled his chronic health issues and major challenges in life, as I myself have long term issues with health. He was always in good spirit and kind what ever went down in his life. A couple of weeks ago or so a carer of his informed us of Paul’s emergency admittance to the hospital. While there he still thanked us for our kind well wishes via his carer and he sounded very positive. Yesterday we were informed:

    “”Hello everyone, It is with great sadness that I am letting you know that our friend Paul has passed away.
    He died peacefully this morning in Tamworth Hospital.

    I was speaking to Paul last night and he sounded so well.
    Paul asked me to thank you all so much for the messages you have sent to him. He appreciated it very much.

    I will let you know the details of his funeral when they are confirmed.

    To all of us who have shared time with this wonderful man may we remember him and smile often and know that he was so grateful for our friendship.

    With kind regards

    Vale Paul Burns, an outstanding human, researcher and historian, we will miss your zest for life, your friend- and scholarship.

  72. And while I am here, I was just reminded again why I don’t frequent C+ threads much anymore. Brian above speaks for all of us who can’t be bothered anymore.

    “” JUNE 13, 2021 AT 3:04 PM
    jumpy, I haven’t got time for your ‘argument by pronouncement’ MO right now.””

    This bloated thread here again demonstrates this jumped up character’s ability to hijack any discussion and make it all about himself and his cut and paste propaganda. As for his pronouncement about his motivation on being here “to learn”, it is as hollow as his arguments. So it beats me why people still engage with and encourage these inanities only to drive others away from here.

  73. Jumpy: “Look, I’ve investigated a project possibility for 32 , 5 1/2 acre, off grid, unserviced homes on old sugar cane land within 20 mins ish from the CBD. Everyone in Gubermint, law and in the game said I’d be in for a decade long legal battle with little chance of approval.”
    Quite right. There is a whole lot of regulation out there that is blocking reasonable changes that would increase the supply of affordable housing.
    The price quoted for the tiny house is very high compared with other prices I have seen. One of the problems with tiny houses is that some governments insist they have wheels and are only temporary accommodation.
    I lived happily most of primary school in a garage that was divided into 2 rooms. Have also got lots and lots of experience living in mining camp dongas. It is what makes me think that small is practical and can be quite livable if done properly.

  74. Quite right John. I’ve lived a fair chunk of my time in dongas and on boats.

    A 30 foot boat/ yacht model tiny home is a perfect for land based living if one removes the need to float and move.

    A 40 foot shipping container sized dwelling for 1 to 5 folk would be comfortable on an 2 acres for me. Don’t spend much time, other than sleeping, inside the house I’ve got now.

    In fact, I’m most happy motorcycle camping up a coastal creek track when I get the chance.

    Disclaimer: the above is not an argument but is a pronouncement, as usual. Do with it what you will, I don’t care.

  75. Jumpy: I was going to agree. Before I was married I used to think a 2 person tent was decadence and sleeping on gravel heaps was pretty luxurious. I was surprised when my new wife was not impressed by the gravel heap I used for overnighting on the way to camping.

  76. Thankyou Ootz. You are right, we have lost a splendid human being. I remember him well.

    Having clarity of mind and spirit to the end, and dying peacefully is a great gift.

    Vale Paul Burns, and Ootz please do let us know about the funeral if you can.

  77. Greg Jericho documents the boom in housing prices.
    Unfortunately he doesn’t offer any solutions for people wanting to get on the escalator.

    Ootz, that’s sad news re Paul. I can only echo what a fine person he was. Thank you for keeping in touch with him.

  78. Last night I identified a labor person passionate and knowledgeable about housing who appears to have some input on formal policy forums.

    I’d never heard of him before.

    I need to do some more research in this area, which means finding time and headspace.

    For a variety of reasons I have had a number of challenges really over the last 18 months related to health, family and quite frankly technology, where I’m convinced there are evil forces devoted to messing me around.

    Today I have to spend time trying to get a paper delivered competently. Recently it was left in the rain and wind on the footpath with no plastic cover. We never did recover every sheet. Nearly half the time it doesn’t arrive at all, and sometimes we get the wrong paper.

    On housing, I do have personal reasons. I have three kids. None of them have a stake in the roof over their heads, and one has been sheltering with us for nearly two years now.

  79. Some of you may have read “Dark Emu”, a book that claims that some Aborigines indulged in agriculture and aquaculture to a significant extent. There has been significant pushback from various quarters including from people who say that the claims are a put down of hunter gathering.
    The Conservation’s Friday essay: “How our new archaeological research investigates Dark Emu’s idea of Aboriginal ‘agriculture’ and villages.” looks at investigation in the channel country area with some interesting result: https://theconversation.com/friday-essay-how-our-new-archaeological-research-investigates-dark-emus-idea-of-aboriginal-agriculture-and-villages-146754
    Worth a read.

  80. John, also worth a read:

    What is Indigenous knowledge and who has it? Tim Rowse reviews Peter Sutton and Keryn Walshe’s critique of Bruce Pascoe’s Dark Emu

      What is Indigenous knowledge and who has it? Tim Rowse reviews Peter Sutton and Keryn Walshe’s critique of Bruce Pascoe’s Dark Emu

    Sutton and Walsh, one an anthropologist and the other an archeologist, critique Pascoe’s work in the context of studies in that area over the last century and a half. Rowse himself is no mug.

    The research undertaken as per the link you cite should through new light. We just need to be a bit patient.

  81. Thank you Brian and Zoot for your kind words about Paul. This message was left on his FB page:

    ““ Hello again everyone, thank you for all the kind comments sent for Paul.
    In accordance with Paul’s wishes his funeral will be held at:

    Saint Mary and Joseph Catholic Cathedral
    136 danger street Armidale N.S.W 2350

    Date: Monday 21st June 2021
    Time: 10am.

    If you are able to contact people within your friendship circles who may know Paul, please pass on this information.

    It would also be very much appreciated if you felt able to post some of your memories of your time with Paul to share.

    Kind regards
    Tracy ““

  82. Brian: “The back cover of the second edition of Dark Emu carries Pascoe’s invitation to buy, read and admire. “If we look at the evidence presented to us by the explorers,” he writes, “and explain to our children that Aboriginal people did build houses, did build dams, did sow, irrigate and till the land, did alter the course of rivers, did sew their clothes, and did construct a system of pan-continental government and generated peace and prosperity, then it is likely we will admire and love our land all the more.””
    It comes across as an ambit claim and is weakened by it.
    I accept that there were places where some Aborigines did some of these things. Which things would depend on which groups we are talking about. Also accept that ideas and beliefs were exchanged over long distances between neighbours and along song lines and trading routes and could have crossed the continent. But “construct a system of pan-continental government and generated peace and prosperity” seems to be stretching things a bit.
    Some of it comes across as trying to make Aborigines look good in terms of European values.
    My take is that if 500 people were isolated on some island with poor mineral resources the culture that they would need
    to survive would look something like what the warndilyagwa had. Problems this culture would need to deal with include things like:
    Avoiding incest
    Sharing variable resources.
    Dispute resolution
    Dealing with harm to one of your group.

  83. JohnD @6.55

    What you described there recently sold in Sydney for $1.6 million. It is the opportunity value, not the technical value that is the affordability problem.

    If you don’t detach the property from the open market structure property transactions are the vehicle to make one person rich and the other person poor depending on the location and situation.

  84. If you don’t believe in a solution to the housing affordability problem based on open market detachment, then you should also disavow Australia’s PBS (pharmaceutical benefits scheme).

    Without the PBS many diabetics would die as they do in the US due to opportunistic pricing of insulin and other life saving drugs.

  85. Bilb: “If you don’t believe in a solution to the housing affordability problem based on open market detachment, then you should also disavow Australia’s PBS (pharmaceutical benefits scheme).” “What is open market detachment?”

  86. John D, bilb will no doubt speak for himself, but his phrasing is a bit of a mouthful, and you’ve not made it easier. I think he means that we need to detach social housing property from the open market structure of property transactions.

    With your @ 4.11, about Aborigines, that pretty much accords with my limited knowledge and experience.

    Linking with the housing theme, the difference in the relationship to land and the environment is fundamental. The Aborigines see themselves as part of the land, ‘owned’ by it if you want to use that terminology, and part of nature where they have a custodian role.

    Europeans see themselves as owning the land, intervening, disrupting and ‘improving’.

    To my mind, personal property ownership is fundamental to the development of capitalism with the early structures being set up with animal herding and the use of the horse, the wheel and the wagon on the Steppes above the Black Sea as I attempted to outline in Deep origins:patriarchy. From that we got the stratification, class, castes etc which come with hierarchical social structures.

    It’s interesting that in many religious societies usury, strictly speaking, charging interest on a loan, was deemed a sin and illegal.

    It makes you realise that how interest is paid is by human-created rules which can be varied for defined situations and purposes.

    Our society under current management has no compunction about capitalists making money out of other people’s misfortune and misery. It seems to be the preferred way of delivering services.

    Be that as it may, I’ve happened upon a comprehensive report on housing by the UNSW City Futures Research Centre. The report:

      Housing: Taming the Elephant in the Economy presented to the Housing and Productivity Research Consortium, highlights informed opinions of 87 leading Australian economists and other housing market experts on the impacts of housing system outcomes on Australia’s economy. The report advocates far-reaching changes to re-shape Australia’s housing system and remedy damage to economic productivity, reduce exposure to financial instability and stem rising inequality.

    They say:

      The recent explosion in house prices, in particular, brings a fresh and troubling dynamic for younger Australians who are being locked out of the market in growing numbers, Prof. Maclennan said.

      “Surging property prices have left some wealthier and older Australians better off, but younger and poorer Australians, who are the future buyers, are much worse off,” said Everybody’s Home national spokesperson Kate Colvin.

    They want significant Commonwealth involvement starting with Royal Commission on Housing Future Australia, the expansion of RBA formal accountabilities to include housing market stability, and the establishment of a permanent Housing Committee as part of the National Cabinet.


      In the immediate term, Australian governments should give consideration to switching housing stimulus efforts from market housing to the social rental sector with potentially lesser inflationary consequences.

    Private enterprise can still be involved. The profit is in the initial price. In principle bilb’s idea of CGRPT’s is no different from the electricity transmission corporates having a regulator determine what they can charge.

    I’m meeting my younger brother on Monday. Will discuss it with him, but I’m inclined to do something here on the back of such a report. It may be just another stone in the pond, but you never know.

  87. Ootz, thankyou for the information about Paul’s funeral. I’ll see whether I can mine the files to send around a missive tomorrow, which I’ll do via bcc (undisclosed recipients).

    Our thoughts and sympathies will be with him and his nearest and dearest.

  88. Thanks for your support, Brian.

    Paul Burns was a good mind to throw ideas at. Paul’s debilitating skin condition (I think it was Paul with this) would have been very difficult to live with and I felt deeply for him, and admired his bravery.

  89. While you are mining the archive, Brian, it would be fascinating to see an honor roll of LP’s regular contributors. There were so many, and good minds who one could consider as friends. I do miss Robert Merkel, for instance.

    Something for another time, though. It’s easy to dream up things for others to do. Bad Bill.

  90. Sorry, JohnD, I got the comment time stamp wrong, it was your @6.36 comment talking about 2 room living. Back in the 70’s i lived in a 2 room house with an outside toilet in Newtown. 75 Bedford St. I just looked up its value, mid at $1.14 million to high at $1.29 million. It’s been improved since then but virtually no land, on a main bus route, beside at least 7 track wide railway, no parking, and directly under the flight path to Kingsport Smith. It’s only real asset is proximity.

  91. There were quite a few articles on that UNSW site, including

    Tiny houses: not the big answer to housing you might think

    One problem is that the land is still expensive and location can be an issue.

    Hal Pawson on Albanese’s $10b pledge pushes housing needs back into the limelight

    In terms of need it’s like putting their toe into the water. However, the main value is that the issue is seen as one that merits Federal involvement, and it puts the issue back on the agenda. The article has quite a lot of information.

    States housed 40,000 people for the COVID emergency. Now rough sleeper numbers are back on the up

    We deemed it important then. Why not the rest of the time?

    Also there is another census coming up, which by nature will miss a lot of the homeless.

  92. Would, perhaps, government continually rooting around in the housing market ( often to ameliorate problems in totally seperate parts of the economy), creating bubbles and inflationary feedback loops have anything to do with overpriced houses that buyers can’t get enough of ?

    Back in the good olde days, how much less of this market interference by Governments caused prices to escalate?

    Could it be that governmental bastardisations of the market could have suboptimal effects, just a tiny bit ?

    * asking for a friend.

  93. Jumpy, you have to get over the notion the government is per se bad. It depends on what governments do.

    It seems evident that Australian government intervention in housing has not been consistent and effective over the years. Compare Singapore, where 80% of citizens live in public housing.

    There was an article in the AFR the other day (can’t find it now) which said that housing development in Australia required too many approvals which take so long that the industry can never respond effectively to demand.

    Then I saw another article that said that was not the main problem. I’m inclined to go along with the UNSW crew which says we need to escalate the issue in our policy agenda, starting with a Royal Commission. I haven’t read their report yet, so I’m not going to diss it out of hand. Even when I do, chances are they have a better idea than I have.

  94. Brian

    Jumpy, you have to get over the notion the government is per se bad. It depends on what governments do.

    And you have to get over the idea that Government intervention that fucks up a market can be fixed with even more Government intervention.
    The housing market is overdosing, stop giving it more of the same drugs.

    Libraries on the other hand are your field of expertise.

  95. And you have to get over the idea that Government intervention that fucks up a market can be fixed with even more Government intervention.

    And you have to get over the idea that removing Government intervention entirely will correct the situation, particularly given the high percentage of cowboys who infest your chosen field of employment.

  96. Jumpy @1.33

    I can understand that you (*) know so little about the construction industry as you (*) are younger than some here, however you (*) are completely deluded.

    In the “good old days” which would include the 60’s to buy a property on had to have at least a full 25% deposit to achieve bank finance.

    My father as an Architect had the Australian Building Code book at home and as a teenager I read the whole thing through. It was very specific and very defined, which is why the houses of the time all look very much alike (triple fronted brick veneer being the standard descriptor).

    I suggest that you feel persecuted by government, not because it is real, but because that is your (*) personality percolating through. Life long victimhood.

    * Please pass that advice through to your friend
    * the last building my father did was the Reserve Bank Building in Martin Place in Sydney.

  97. JohnD, 75 Bedford St was definitely close to public transport. It is actually a great location. At the time there was a brilliant baker over the station and on the big intersection at the end of the road. On Saturdays only he would bake the world’s best raisin bread for which there was always a que down the street on a scale you would expect in Communist Russia (at the time still a reality).

  98. Bilb: “Under the free market housing model it is impossible for houses to be built for sale at their construction cost, as, at the first re-sale, property prices are drawn up to the market price. Any benefits in the form of lower land cost, first home buyer grants, or foregone speculator’s margins are “cashed up” at the time of a re-sale and benevolence is not passed on to future buyers. ” Interesting one Bilb. I can see a number of problems with a system that will have essentially equivalent houses sold at very different prices because the price of one is controlled:
    1. People get around it by under the table payments.
    2. Difficult for people who have to move and own price controlled houses and can’t get a controlled house in the place where they move to.

  99. Thanks, again Brian.

    The key method to achieve low cost housing comes with the subdivision of a previous property and in one transaction build several of the multilevel buildings I suggest on the CGRPT site. There are a lot of features designed into such dwellings using techniques I see here in the Netherlands. One of the most important features is that while these buildings appear to be semidetached they not. There are no common walls. There is a metre between buildings, a feature which long term advantages. With no common wall there is no requirement for a body corporate to manage common property issues so there is no permanent cash flow drain. The second is that this feature solves the 60:40 land use issue which turned out to be about storm water runoff, so in the space between the buildings is a 15 to 20 thousand litre water tank to take the storm water runoff, water which can be drained off slowly or stored depending on what the climate/weather situation is offering.

    In the design we talk about the prospect of a collapsible “lap spa pool” (two long flat sides with folding ends which collapse back against the terrace wall when not needed) which can be filled from the storm water tank in Summer. The terrace in these designs becomes the back yard for the property and the open air space for private relaxation, or for kids to play safely.

    Because of the one metre space between properties each dwelling has a deep soil garden down one side of the terrace for various planting ideas. In the illustrated building which is a 9 by 10 metre (90 square metres ground footprint) the property has a full 10 square metres of deep soil garden on one side and 16 square metres of wall space on the other side for vertical garde planting if the owner so desires. There is also a bicycle garage under the garden space.

    The terrace studio roof has space for 2 kilowatts of PV electrical capacity and including well over 4 kilowatts of solar thermal energy collection capacity (for free hot water) with a product that I will make an announcement on soon as I have begun to talk to a European company that can make this feature as a retrofit for existing solar panels. Really cool/hot depending on your preferred terminology.

    The design includes provision for a unique elevator designed in Europe to be compact, affordable, fast efficient, and safe including battery power backup. Designed in and retrofitable, but not essential depending on the owners need.

    This design development is the iPod of affordable accommodation. Once you had to have a piece of furniture to have music in your life, now it fits in your pocket. This is that degree of difference, possible complete with the lower cost and the improvement in peoples lives.

    All it takes is a bit of clear thinking from government to enable it to happen.

    Business leaders should be all over government to demand the CGRPT development goes forward, as it is the best way to keep wage pressure low. Not that I promote that view but it is the reality. By the way I did spend over $3000 attending NSW Liberal Events in the attempt to give the idea a hearing. Mark Speakman was the most positive, but in the end said we would have “do a trial, consider the outcome “ ie all to hard. Labor? Well they were all enjoying their own self importance to much to actually stop and think for 10 minutes, ….. not a single intelligent probing question.

    Please Labor, just take the time to think about it.

  100. Thanks JohnD for your input.

    1. Where “under the table deals” might be true in some situations you cannot declare it to be a given human essential.
    The fact is that many CGRPT properties will be built for Retiree Property Downsizers. The CGRPT concept gives such people an opportunity to have full unencumbered title to their property.

    At the moment the only chance such people have is to buy into a “retirement” village where they pay inflated prices and are contracted to sell their property back to the corporation at their buy in price ie not even the CPI value increase. Ultimately such corporations sell off the properties at the open market value taking all the profit and eliminating the “social housing” aspect to such villages. In the US such villages have become the new corporate greed target.

    2 If a family needs to move and can’t find a suitable existing CGRPT property available, they can contract to have one built in the area they want to move to. It just takes a little more planning. Else they stay put.

    You have to recognize that having a lower purchase price property gives people the advantage to actually save at a higher rate, and while that saving rate does not exceed the market appreciation rate of an open market property, the other overriding advantage is that they were able to obtain a property in the first place where their only other option would be to perpetually rent from the profit obsessed speculative property market.

    Have I adequately addressed your concerns?

  101. I sent an email to some of the Larvatus Prodeo collective. I had about 60 email addresses in my address book, but only about 6 worked.

    Spent a bit of time reminiscing. LP is archived here in the National Library. Unfortunately the links in the text don’t work.

    If you read my Goodbye again post, you’ll see how much I carried the joint in the last months.

    The comments reminded me of the wide range of characters we had commenting. Paul Burns was there, alive but not altogether well.

    You’ll also see how much encouragement I had to start my own blog. I’ve always been disappointed that most of those people never showed up.

  102. Thanks for the Archive link, Brian. My first look …


    Your @12.25 is really interesting. Thanks for that.

    I’ll think about how to the extend the comment range. The essential, I think will be to have a YouTube function , which I realise I need to push CGRPT to a wider discussion. I am not, however, going to the extent of building a sample House (I call them Ausarini’s [Santarini in Aus] ) to video a college frat party on the terrace to attract a wider audience. There has got to be a more subtle way.

    Boobs aside what seems to create explosive interest is a kitten doing something bizar or amazing. What is going on in the human mind there. You see a kitten rescued from a tree and go ahhhh, how cute, then go inside and rip the drumsticks off what was a living bird 48 hours previous. Weird!

  103. For the record ….

    Nov 18th, 2008 at 9:54 am
    According to Richard Hunwick of Hunwick Consultants in 10 years time plug-in electrics will be everywhere, with batteries big enough to be a source of peak power for electricity providers.

    Tick √ for accuracy.

  104. I’m looking for a JumpnmCar to see if crazy is a crazy does.

    How many people should eat their words 15 years later.

    For my part I said we would run out of oil. Hasn’t happened yet.

  105. bilb, the archive isn’t complete. I’m not sure how they do it, but I think they take a representative sample of the blog, and upload once a year in the case of current blogs. In the case of this blog it’s 8 August every year.

    Other member of the LP collective decided in the later years that our Mackay representative’s contribution was surplus to requirements. Not sure anyone ever told him that, as would have been blog etiquette, but he knew.

    I suffer from the disability of having freedom of speech principles, although freedom needs to be balanced by responsibility, plus a genuine concern to avoid groupthink.

  106. The breaking news is that Barnaby is back, and has saves us and the Nats from the embarrassment of having Michael McCormack as acting PM.

    The good news is that this has flushed out the climate deniers, who are now quite overt. It was always the case that Morrison could never adopt net zero by 2050 as policy. He knew that, unless he was completely stupid.

    The media were suckers in thinking that he might.

    It’s not just the Nats. He’d have to sack Angus Taylor, and I can’t see him doing that.

  107. I finished a full post on Barnaby this morning, but for some reason five paragraphs simply won’t show up in the preview.

    There is a gremlin in the system, and I have to go to work today, so I can’t wrangle with it until tonight.

  108. Brian

    Other member of the LP collective decided in the later years that our Mackay representative’s contribution was surplus to requirements. Not sure anyone ever told him that, as would have been blog etiquette, but he knew.

    I didn’t actually know that but I’m not surprised.
    I mean, it’s not a novel concept for Marxists to expunge and airbrush from history a few views that are in conflict with their own.
    But to do it in the National Library, that I help pay for, is definitely a validation of what I’ve been on about.

    Thanks LP Marxists for the illustrative proof.

  109. I’m not that sad that the National Party chose an accountant with real life experience with farmers over a wannabe journalist come political leach.
    On field performance is what we all pay them for.

    Any low down knowledge on which of her mansions electorates Kristina Keneally will run for the HoRs ?
    She needs that to roll Albo.

  110. But to do it in the National Library, that I help pay for, is definitely a validation of what I’ve been on about.

    Hate to spoil your fun but the National Library was not involved. They merely archive what is already on the Web site.
    Your kind donation was not made in vain.

  111. How could a National Government Archive accept a censored version of reality zoot.
    Who else and what else was cut from history.

    Rewriting history ( or deleting it ) is par for the course amongst the far left, condoned and encouraged.

    I’d be happy to not fund that, what you choose to fund is fine by me.

  112. How could a National Government Archive accept a censored version of reality zoot.

    Reality (i.e. what was on the page at the time it was archived) was what they preserved.
    But please, don’t let me distract you from your paranoia. After all, you belong to a movement which believes Italian satellites can change reality at will.

  113. Rewriting history ( or deleting it ) is par for the course amongst the far left, condoned and encouraged.

    While the far right merely cancels the 1619 project, refuses to accept the result of the most secure election in US history (how do they feel now that Mar-a Lago man has admitted he didn’t win?), rewrites the violent insurrection of Jan 6 as “a visit by tourists just wanting to hug the police” etc etc
    Gotta admit, you’ve got me there.

  114. I agree with zoot.

    Jumpy, when you wonder what people think of you, the rule of thumb is, mostly they are not.

    They weren’t doing anything. It was more analogous to flicking off a horse fly.

    However, I read just about every one of your comments, and I did think about you.

    It’s ancient history. You’ve had your reaction, which is understandable. I brought it up because bilb was looking for stuff that wasn’t there.

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