Trümperdämmerung: Trump’s POTUS twilight chapter

That title is from Susan B Glasser’s New Yorker article The Trümperdämmerung Is a Fitting End to 2020

The title is, of course, a reference to Götterdämmerung, the final opera in Wagner’s Ring of the Nibelung cycle, normally translated as Twighlight of the Gods.


Götterdämmerung
now generally means downfall, although the synonym flameout seems apposite in this case. Here’s Glasser:

    As the awful year of 2020 and the awful tenure of Donald Trump both come to an end, the President has partied with the unmasked in Palm Beach and taken credit for a vaccine against a virus that he once counselled could be beaten with bleach. He has pardoned mercenary child-killers and Paul Manafort. He has golfed. He has raged. He has vetoed the annual defense bill and threatened to shut down the government over the holidays. He has turned against even some of his most loyal henchmen, and some, in turn, have finally flipped on him. “Mr. President . . . STOP THE INSANITY,” the New York Post blared on Monday, after four years of relentless cheerleading.

    But, of course, the President did not, and he will not. He continues to refuse to accept his defeat in the election, and just the other day he retweeted a claim that “treason” kept him from winning. Injecting still more political drama into the most ministerial of constitutional processes, Trump and his most fanatical supporters now want Congress to refuse to confirm Joe Biden’s Electoral College win on January 6th—which is both pointless, in that it will not happen, and incredibly destructive. Meanwhile, more than a hundred thousand Americans have died of the coronavirus just since the election, and only two million Americans—not the hundred million he once promised—have so far received the vaccine.

In concrete terms Trump is back in town after a break in his Mar-a-Lago resort in Florada, busily pardoning people and creating mayhem.

On January 6 Congress certifies the results of the electoral college vote, normally a formality. However, this time he wants VP Mike Pence to rule out the votes from certain states. People have been saying that this will not happen, but no-one so far has explained the procedure where this may be possible.

There is an explanation of how Congress settles electoral college disputes, which I won’t attempt to summarise.

The legal situation is complex and unclear. However, it does appear that the numbers in a joint sitting of both houses matter rather than the senate sitting alone. Whether the Supreme Court might get involved, as it did in 1876, is not clear to me.

The bottom line, I think, is that some Republicans want to say stuff on the record, and the loyalty (or not) to Trump of every Republican in Congress will also be on the record. This may be relevant to their preselection chances in the future.

Meanwhile, Trump is trying to conclude a deal to allow an Indigenous holy site to be mined at Oak Flat in Arizona. It’s one of the biggest copper deposits on the planet.

The company, Resolution Copper, is a joint venture of two Australian companies: Rio Tinto and BHP.

Yes, Rio’s record of destroying Indigenous sites in Australia has been noted, but why is our media unconcerned with what our companies do elsewhere?

Also he’s trying to rally companies to lease land for oil drilling in Alaska’s Arctic National Wildlife in an effort to maximise damage to the planet as part of his legacy.

186 thoughts on “Trümperdämmerung: Trump’s POTUS twilight chapter”

  1. After 482 comments on Trump’s last stand the comments thread has automatically closed, so here’s new one for the last POTUS chapter, which, unfortunately will not be the end.

    There is talk of Murdoch offering him megabucks to give him a foghorn at Fox, rather than see him set up a competing fake news channel.

  2. Well, the Aussie Press is rather blinkered in its overseas coverage.

    We hear about a Brazil mine disaster, but did we hear much about that operation before the catastrophe?

    Ample coverage of “White Island” when it explodes; b*gger all about America’s Cup trial races in Waitemata Harbour and the Hauraki Gulf, though spectacular racing and scenery can be enjoyed. Oh, my mistake: there’s no Aussie competitor.

    Disastrous project management for a new Stadium in the UK: Aussie company; minor coverage.

    Ministerial dummy-spits at overseas meetings? Low coverage.

    Bugging in the East Timor govt building? Prosecutions to silence whistle blowers.

    Flouting of Iraq oil-for-food sanctions? Cover-up.

    Bribery of foreign officials to secure polymer-banknote -printing contracts? Cover up if possible.

    ad nauseam

    BTW, credit to Nine Newspapers, “The Australian “, ABC for following some of these stories up……

  3. If I may comment on The Donald

    He’s not The Messiah! He’s just a very naughty boy.

    – Monty Python

    (Shouted as a rebuke to a noisy crowd.)

  4. A foghorn (leghorn) huh? Lets hope the mike is in the great American tradition (rhymes with sedition, curious) of exploding cigars for tyrants.

  5. Ambi: The Brazil mining disaster was a major tailing dam failure. I have never had a tailing dam fail on me. But I do understand that managing tailing dams is not a precise art, particularly if the walls are built from tailings. I am unwilling to judge the company running the operation. (Our BHP from memory.)

  6. This is apparently important:

    This is what it seems to be about in essence:

      The sweeping defense bill, that authorizes a topline of $740 billion in spending and outlines Pentagon policy, typically passes with strong bipartisan support and veto-proof majorities as it funds America’s national security portfolio. It has been signed into law every year for nearly six consecutive decades.

      The bill’s passage, at the minimum, secures soldier pay raises and keeps crucial defense modernization programs running.

    The House voted to override Trump’s veto of the defense bill 322 to 87. It goes to the Senate on Tuesday. What will the GOP do there?

    Unprecedented, we are told.

  7. Just on the raw figures of 322 to 87 in the House, that’s a substantial number of Republicans voting for it (or abstaining?)

    The Lame Duck is running out of allies. Slowly but surely. The ship of state is slowly turning around to a new course (creaking timbers, man the bilge pumps etc.)

  8. The contrasts with Pres Nixon keep accumulating. R. Nixon staged “the Night of the Long Knives “.

    DT has had The Month of Dummy Spits.

  9. The New Daily has an article Donald Trump urges followers to dump Rupert Murdoch’s ‘unwatchable’ Fox News. He thinks Fox is as bad as CNN.

      On Twitter, the outgoing president has been posting about the channel that is unashamedly pro-Trump, far-right, and has little journalistic credibility. He loves to share the network’s clips that claim he still has a way to win the election and get back into the White House.

      On Saturday, he tweeted: “@FoxNews Weekend Daytime is not watchable. Switching over to @OANN!”

      Mr Trump has also encouraged viewers to switch to the MAGA-friendly Newsmax TV. Both TV networks purport to be legitimate news channels but peddle misinformation on voter fraud and the election outcome.

    On OAN, which started in 2013, and supported Trump all the way:

      OAN is anti-immigration, pro-police and rejects climate science.

      When the president claimed that hydroxychloroquine, a controversial and potentially dangerous drug, was a cure for the novel coronavirus, OAN reported it as true.

    Trump may yet start his own channel, which people who know about this stuff say is quite doable.

    I guess it helps when you don’t have to gather news, you just make it up.

  10. In the meantime: “US senator Ted Cruz leads likely futile Republican push to object to Joe Biden’s win.” https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-03/ted-cruz-leads-republican-objection-to-joe-biden-win-over-trump/13028360
    “In a statement, Senator Cruz, the US senator from Texas, and the other 10 senators said they intended to vote to reject electors from states that had been at the centre of President Donald Trump’s unproven assertions of election fraud.
    They said Congress should immediately appoint a commission to conduct an emergency 10-day audit of election results in those states.
    “Once completed, individual states would evaluate the commission’s findings and could convene a special legislative session to certify a change in their vote, if needed,” they said.”
    It all comes across to me as a Joh like undermining of democracy.
    Wonder what effect this circus has on the crucial Georgia senator election on Tuesday 5th. They may not like the Senator from Texas trying to deny Georgian presidential vote.

  11. Some Republicans seem to want their party to finish becoming the anti-democracy party. Can’t let voters over-rule their God given right to be in power
    Others may realize that US democracy needs a serious review.

  12. It’s much more specific than that John.

    If you can bear to listen to the tape, the President explains that “a lot of people in Georgia are very angry because of what was done to the president.”

    It’s all about him.
    Any official who is a Republican should jolly well get on with it and deliver the 12,000 votes he is pleading for. After all, the Prrsident knows that he won Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes in any case.

  13. From “The Guardian”:

    All 10 former US defence secretaries still living, including two who worked for Donald Trump, have called for the president and his supporters to accept he lost the election and warned against attempts to involve the military in his increasingly desperate efforts to overturn the result.

    In an unprecedented joint letter published in the Washington Post, the defence secretaries addressed the worst fears of what could happen in 17 days of Trump’s administration remaining before Joe Biden’s inauguration: an attempt by Trump to foment a crises with the aim of triggering a military intervention in his last-ditch struggle to hold on power.

    “Efforts to involve the US armed forces in resolving election disputes would take us into dangerous, unlawful and unconstitutional territory,” the letter said.

    “Civilian and military officials who direct or carry out such measures would be accountable, including potentially facing criminal penalties, for the grave consequences of their actions on our republic.”

    Among the signatories were James Mattis and Mark Esper, who both served as defence secretaries in the Trump administration.

    Checks and balances, checks and balances; Constitution.

  14. That was all history in the making.

    A perfect phone call, ……. followed by a perfect response.

    Trump also making the perfect case to eliminate the electoral college step in he electoral system

    The score so far

    Democracy 1
    Politics 0.5
    God 0

  15. While he pushes back against Trump, Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger is trying to limit voting options for Democratic constituencies. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2021/01/brad-raffensperger-defended-the-election-but-not-the-right-to-vote-in-future-ones/?utm_source=mj-newsletters&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily-newsletter-01-04-2021
    “Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger has received widespread praise for defending the integrity of his state’s election and refusing to go along with President Trump’s unprecedented attempts to overturn the results. This became front-page news over the weekend when the Washington Post revealed that Trump had called Raffensperger and asked him to “find 11,780 votes” to nullify Joe Biden’s victory in Georgia, which Raffensperger refused to do.

    But while he refutes Trump, Raffensperger has been more quietly backing his party’s efforts to make it harder to vote, just as Georgians cast their ballots in two critical runoff elections Tuesday that will determine control of the Senate. The most significant measures could prevent Democrats from winning future elections by targeting the methods that have led to record turnout in Georgia. After Black voters and Democrats used mail voting at a much higher rate than white voters and Republicans in the November election, Georgia Republicans have vowed to pass sweeping restrictions on mail voting this year. Raffensperger has endorsed these efforts, calling for an end to no-excuse absentee voting, which 1.3 million Georgians used in November, and for voter ID requirements to be extended to mail ballots. “It opens the door for potential illegal voting,” Raffensperger said of mail voting, even though his own data—which he has repeatedly cited to defend the integrity of the November election from Trump’s assault—shows no evidence of widespread voter fraud.

    None of that will affect Tuesday’s races, but other actions he’s taken might. He has accused progressive voter registration groups that focus on registering young voters and voters of color of trying to register ineligible voters during the runoffs. He’s offered scant evidence to back up these claims, which voting rights groups said were designed to dampen participation among these constituencies. He also backed efforts by conservative groups to challenge the eligibility of thousands of voters during the runoff elections. Under his tenure as secretary of state, several counties have closed polling places, and minority voters forced to wait eight times as long as whites to vote during the state’s disastrous June presidential primary. ” This underlies the need for radical reform of the US electoral systems.

  16. Meanwhile: “Ambulance workers in coronavirus-hit Los Angeles told to stop transporting patients likely to die.” https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-06/la-ambulance-workers-stop-transporting-patients-likely-to-die/13035334
    “California has emerged as the latest epicentre of the US coronavirus pandemic, with nearly 4,000 deaths in the past two weeks alone, and hospitals bracing for another surge expected from the holiday period.
    In Los Angeles, where packed hospitals have been turning away ambulances, medics were on Monday instructed not to transport adult cardiac arrest patients if they could not be resuscitated in the field.
    The county’s Emergency Medical Services (EMS) agency also issued a directive for ambulance crews to save oxygen supplies by only administering to patients with severely low levels.
    Local EMS agency head Marianne Gausche-Hill told CBS that medics were “not abandoning resuscitation” in the field, but that transporting patients with “very poor outcomes” who cannot be resuscitated could “impact our hospitals”.
    NOTE: JD daughter inlaw, son and grandson live in LA. All feeling a bit personal.

  17. On a lighter note: if one considers the cost to the American taxpayer of Trump’s golf outings he is apparently the country’s tenth highest paid athlete.

  18. Value for money Zoot. While he is playing golf he is less likely to be stuffing up the country.

  19. Trump golfing on his own courses while being payed $1/year would cost approximately $4.
    Other than travel and security ( same as any POTUS ), what other costs to the American Taxpayer would get him to the 10th highest payed “ athlete “ ?

  20. One of the funny things about the US is the way American Presidents are always getting the photos taken play golf=sitting in golf buggy.
    To give Trump his due I have seen photos of him actually trying to hit a golf ball!!

  21. It just gets worse for the Republicans.
    Rev Raphael Warnock has defeated senator Kelly Loeffler to become the first black Democratic US senator from Georgia.
    My condolences to Jumpy.
    And my thoughts and prayers of course.

  22. To give Trump his due I have seen photos of him actually trying to hit a golf ball!!

    It’s hilarious isn’t it.

  23. Correction.
    Rev Raphael Warnock has defeated senator Kelly Loeffler to become the first black Democratic US senator from Georgia any southern state.
    Hopefully the times they are a’changing.

  24. Dwight Eisenhower was a notable golf playing President, as I recall.

    Some folk thought he should have spent more time at the office.

  25. Trump golfing on his own courses while being payed $1/year would cost approximately $4.

    Indeed it would if the taxpayer wasn’t still paying the $400,000 salary which he donates each quarter to worthy causes (strangely enough, none of them a Trump entity).
    Trump has waddled around a golf course more than twice as often as Obama so comparisons to his predecessor are moot.
    This gloriously anti-Trump piece quotes the Huffington Post saying the total taxpayer golf bill

    … translates to 334 years of the presidential salary that Trump and his supporters frequently boast he is not taking.

  26. Seems like the second Democrat is also up.

    Learnings from this:

    Democrats will find they can win more seats in the South by getting out the minorities vote.

    Republicans will up the ante in vote suppression.

  27. What are the odds that Mitch McConnell will suddenly have an irresistible desire to spend more time with his family?

  28. Trump supporters have broken into the US Capitol. “This is the first time the US Capitol has been breached in over 200 years
    Just a bit of context here: The US Capitol Historical Society says this was the first time the Capitol has been physically broken into since 1814, when British soldiers stormed the space as part of the war of 1812. ”
    “Donald Trump tells rioters to go home and repeats false claims of election fraud.” https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-07/us-politics-live-updates-donald-trump-protests-washington/13037080
    Politicians wearing gas masks have fled the House of Representatives and the Senate chambers after rioters stormed the US Capitol in Washington.
    President-elect Joe Biden and Vice-President Mike Pence have strongly condemned the violence and urged the mob to go home.
    Donald Trump has tweeted false claims the election was stolen from him and told the rioters “we love you” and “go home in peace.
    Some would say that Putin has done a brilliant job of stuffing up America by getting Trump elected..

  29. Some would say that, John, but in the end 62,984,825 Americans marked their ballot for Trump in 2016 (65,853,516 for Clinton).

    It was about 27% of eligible voters that did it. Hitler, by contrast, got 36.8% of the vote in 1933.

    Something for Americans to think about.

  30. Former President George W Bush condemns the “insurrection” as “heartbreaking and sickening”
    The Republican leader released a statement saying, “This is how election results are disputed in a banana republic – not our democratic republic. I am appalled by the reckless behavior of some political leaders since the election and by the lack of respect shown today for our institutions, our traditions.” YEP
    Pence has said he will definitely support the election of Biden when the count reaches a reconvened congress.
    It is also about time that Pence does what is necessary to dismiss Trump NOW on grounds of not being competent to remain president until the inauguration.

  31. Apparently Mr Pence has also said that the rioters should face the full force of the law.

    There are four methods of removal.
    25th amendment
    Impeachment
    Resignation without conditions
    Resignation after granting himself a full pardon for the Federal offences committed.

    Fox news may offer him his own show. Why not? It’ll be expensive retaining all those additional defamation lawyers, but.

  32. Ambi: The VP can dismiss Trump now after a prescribed meeting with some cabinet members. Not sure of the details but the process allows the VP to assume presidential powers when the President is no longer able to do the job. (It is meant for medical problems but my understanding is that this process is also there to cover stark raving incompetence.)
    In addition:
    “Twitter has locked Donald Trump’s account
    The @TwitterSafety account has just released a string of tweets, saying that they have locked Donald Trump’s Twitter account for “repeated and severe violations of our Civic Integrity policy.

    It says Trump’s account will be locked for 12 hours once he removes three tweets (assuming these are the ones Twitter has already deleted from public view). It says if he doesn’t remove the tweets, his account will stay locked.

    Finally, it says further breaches of the Civic Integrity or Violent Threats policies will lead to his account being permanently suspended.” https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-07/us-politics-live-updates-donald-trump-protests-washington/13037080
    Things are getting serious for Trump!!

  33. It’s funny isn’t it, when the right do it it’s called “ rioting “ by the media, when the left do it it’s called “ mostly peaceful protesting “.

    In any event, I’m sure now that the Dems have the Holy Trinity of governmental power in America that unity, prosperity and equality will soon be realised. Also on the Global level, relationships healed and wars will end. Certainly it’ll be better for Australians.

    The opposite of what trump did apparently.

  34. It’s funny isn’t it, when the right do it it’s called “ rioting “ by the media, when the left do it it’s called “ mostly peaceful protesting “.

    What media would that be? (I’m guessing the media in your febrile imagination).

    BTW I thought you were to busy for inanity like this. Isn’t that what you said when you flounced off?

  35. No zoot, I said I’m focusing on positives this year.
    And I’m positive that you are of zero worth in honest discourse.
    So take all the nasty potshots you want to make you less miserable.

    Peace.

  36. I said I’m focusing on positives this year.

    So are you no longer using asinine terms like the mainstream media (D)? Are you no longer writing in support of a president who has incites insurrection? (It doesn’t get much more negative than that.) Are you’re going to start writing comments in agreement with the generally left lean of this blog? (When in Rome etc etc)
    On your planet what constitutes “positive”?

  37. Yes John

    I think the prospective intervention by VP Pence witb a majority of Cabinet would be under the 25th Amendment.

    Another safeguard.

  38. I recon the US will survive another 13 day of a trump Presidency.
    Surly one mostly peaceful protest among the hundreds they’ve had doesn’t weaken everyone’s knees and irrevocable chaos results.

    Patience people, it’ll be ok.

    And I’m with Brian about Assange, trump should pardon him and Snowden, we all know government can’t be trusted to be transparent and honest.

  39. In light of the current Republican efforts to overturn certified election results it seems appropriate now to remind Jumpy of his comment

    What is it with the leftists not accepting Democratic decisions unless they win it ?

    made at 7:46 pm on November 10, 2019 (Weekly Salon 1/11).
    Now that’s E…Vid…Ence

  40. Evidence I was and remain correct, thanks zoot.

    You seem to think, despite my declarations in the past, that I’m a Republican supporter. Ok, think whatever makes you less sad.

    ( thumbs up emoji )

  41. You seem to think, despite my declarations in the past, that I’m a Republican supporter.

    Only because you have not once criticised a Republican politician, a Republican policy or a Republican statement.
    You haven’t even found it within you to condemn the mob of insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol at the behest of the Republicans in Congress and the Republican President.
    Now I realise that on your planet the sun shines out of a Republican arse, but even so there are Republican actions which merit censure and even members of the Marxist collective which inhabits this forum have found it possible to criticise Democratic politicians (like Biden) precisely because we are not dyed in the wool Democrats (we’re mainly Australians and ineligible for a start). You have never displayed that level of objectivity. So yes, you are a Republican supporter, despite your declarations in the past.

  42. Jumpy: “You seem to think, despite my declarations in the past, that I’m a Republican supporter. ”
    Agreed. I would have said you are further along the Libertarian/crazy right path than the traditional Republican.

  43. Donald Trump says transition will be orderly, after Joe Biden finally certified as next US president. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-07/joe-biden-certified-by-us-congress-as-next-us-president/13039966
    “President Donald Trump has said there would be an “orderly transition on January 20th” after Congress concluded the electoral college vote count certifying president-elect Joe Biden’s victory.

    Mr Trump acknowledged defeat in the November 3 election for the first time, after a day of chaos and destruction on Capitol Hill perpetrated in his name by supporters who halted business in Congress for more than six hours.

    “Even though I totally disagree with the outcome of the election, and the facts bear me out, nevertheless there will be an orderly transition on January 20th,” Mr Trump said in a statement posted to Twitter by aides.
    His personal account was locked by the social media company for posting messages that appeared to justify the assault on the seat of the nation’s democracy.
    He added: “While this represents the end of the greatest first term in presidential history, it’s only the beginning of our fight to Make America Great Again!”
    The ego may have landed but who knows what he will do between now and the inauguration.

  44. The ego may have landed but who knows what he will do between now and the inauguration.

    Probably a good time to buy a presidential pardon – $1million each or 3 for $2million. Come on down to Crazy Don’s closing down sale!! Everything must go.

  45. zoot, you referred to “the mob of insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol at the behest of the Republicans in Congress and the Republican President.”

    Were there in fact any Republicans in Congress stirring the riotous behaviour? Most I saw and heard condemned him and what happened, but I’ve been was flat as a lizard drinking, as we used to say, and didn’t see any footage until about 9.20 this evening when we watched SBS news On Demand.

    Appalling. He should go.

  46. According to USA Today in simple terms:

    The vice president and a majority of the Cabinet could declare the president unable to “discharge the powers and duties of his office.” If the president disputes that determination, two-thirds of both the House and the Senate must vote to put the vice president in charge.

    I think the feeling is that the President would have to be mad (nutty as a fruitcake) rather than just bad.

    Pence would not move unless he was sure of Congress backing him. That seems unlikely from what they say.

    The Amendment was intended for presidents who were temporarily indisposed, but there is no logical reason I can see to prevent its use. The article suggests that there has been serious talk by the relevant parties about using it before this incident.

    There’s more at the ABC.

  47. Brian, I’ve read reports (sorry, no links) that Republican members such as Cruz and Hawley greeted the insurrectionists inside the Capitol. While that may just be my imagination, Hawley definitely encouraged the sedition.
    And while I’m here I’ll preempt Jumpy’s next justification for his Republican heroes with this.

  48. As for what should happen to Trump, I’ll quote a man I respect who makes the point there are laws against what has just happened. Breaking them should have consequences.

    Trump needs to be arrested and tried immediately. His Republican co-conspirators need to lose their seats in the Senate. They all need to spend some time in prison, and never be allowed to run for office ever again.
    It’s really that simple. If the Democrats won’t grow a spine and enforce the law, then be prepared for more half-assed rebellions by dumbass conspiracy theorists for year after year.

    I’m not holding my breath.

  49. I think the feeling is that the President would have to be mad (nutty as a fruitcake) rather than just bad.

    A member of my family is currently in a locked ward due to their delusions. From bitter experience I can assure you that Trump is delusional (i.e. nutty as a fruitcake).

  50. I can’t wait to see our freedom boy from Mackay participating in a riotous takeover of our parliament, incited and encouraged by our very own ‘orange one’ and uncle Rupe’s preachers of truth. What a picture, wearing a bunyip costume and draped in the Eureka flag reciting stanzas from Andrew Bolt’s wisdom at the speakers seat. Sure sure, Antifa made him do it. Don’t say it can’t happen here where the ‘relaxed and comfortable’ battlers rule.

    I know the current, still incumbent, leader of the free world is a reality tv host, but I don’t know how the US is going to live with the pictures that came out of The Capitol yesterday. I can see at the next international trade meeting the Russian and Chinese delegates chuckling at a photo with this half naked hairy fool with the horned pelt hat conducting proceedings in the US legislature. Close to $700b spent in defence and the barbarian hordes just smash their way into ‘the hallowed halls of democracy’. America n’existe pas, it is all an illusion, like a hollow Hollywood script or indeed the proceedings of a greasy reality tv show.

    Happy New Year all, 8 days in, 2021 looks promising.

  51. Ootz

    I can’t wait to see our freedom boy from Mackay participating in a riotous takeover of our parliament, incited and encouraged by our very own ‘orange one’ and uncle Rupe’s preachers of truth. What a picture, wearing a bunyip costume and draped in the Eureka flag reciting stanzas from Andrew Bolt’s wisdom at the speakers seat.

    What, something like ALP and the unionists in 1996 ?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Parliament_House_riot

    I’m sure that’s justified by you right ?

  52. This is apparently from an editorial in the “Wall Street Journal”:

    If Mr Trump wants to avoid a second impeachment, his best path would be to take personal responsibility and resign. This would be the cleanest solution since it would immediately turn presidential duties over to Mr Pence And it would give Mr Trump agency, a la Richard Nixon, over his own fate.

    This might also stem the flood of White House and Cabinet resignations that are understandable as acts of conscience but could leave the government dangerously unmanned. Robert O’Brien, the national security adviser, in particular should stay at his post.

    We know an act of grace by Mr Trump isn’t likely. In any case this week has probably finished him as a serious political figure. He has cost Republicans the House, the White House, and now the Senate. Worse, he has betrayed his loyal supporters by lying to them about the election and the ability of Congress and Mr Pence to overturn it. He has refused to accept the basic bargain of democracy, which is to accept the result, win or lose.

    It is best for everyone, himself included, if he goes away quietly.

    And from the editorial board of a rag called “USA Today”:

    Trump appears mentally incapacitated — living in a fantasy world of voting fraud, unable to accept being labeled a loser, checking out of his job even as thousands of Americans are dying every day from the raging coronavirus … Now is the time for the vice-president and members of the Cabinet to prove they are patriots.

    ***

    As Shakespeare had Julius Caesar exclaim, while mortally wounded by assassins: “ et tu, Brute?

  53. The Capital Hill building was last breach in October 2018.

    Ah false equivalence, your name is Jumpy.

    And I note again our Mackay correspondent’s inability to criticise an attempt to overthrow the results of a legitimate election.

  54. From a New York reporter.

    The narrative going around is that Jared & co. plan to buy up all the distressed assets created by the pandemic he created, like a fucking oligarch.

    Aint capitalism grand?

  55. Wow, Jared Kuahner created the China virus now.

    It’s a wonderful thing to have a fantastical imagination, it’s quite the opposite to believe it’s true.

    On the plus side, it isn’t.

  56. Jumpy, is George Soros paying you to come here and make libertarians look stupid?
    While it’s an admittedly loose use of the term pandemic, nobody is claiming Kushner created the virus, merely that he is largely responsible for the disaster that is the US response to the coronavirus.

  57. Has the Mackay IPA-bot not left us yet as pronounced with great fanfare or is this just an apparition with a cunning mind reading capacity:
    “” I’m sure that’s justified by you””

    On Twitter, journalist Paul Karp asking the PM about George Christensen’s peddling of conspiracy theories about the US election and Craig Kelly also sprouting similar rubbish.

    Karp: “Will you condemn conspiracy theories being promoted by members of your own government?”
    Morrison: “No.”

  58. Ootz, I didn’t say leaving, just less and more positive.

    Good for you for ignoring all of the lefts conspiracy theories.

    Got the transcript, audio or footage of that interview for us ?

    It’s not that I don’t trust you but I’m interested in the context and nuance, as we all surly are.

  59. “”Good for you for ignoring all of the lefts conspiracy theories.””

    Crickey it is reAdIng my MiNd again! I am so dazzled by this supernatural apparition for I can’t even make out left for right again. Perplexing though that this ghost bot has not been programmed to do simple online searches. Let’s see if it responds to “fetch boy!”

    “I’m deeply concerned for my country,” writes Schwarzenegger for The Economist. “As an immigrant, as an American and as a Republican, it is my duty to speak up. .. It is time to end the president’s stupid, crazy and evil” ploy to cling to power, says the former governor of California. Anyone need context and nuance on this?

    Lastly @reuters reports: “The woman shot dead by police during Wednesday’s siege of US Capitol was identified by police as Ashli Babbitt, a US Air Force veteran whose social media activity indicates she embraced far-fetched right-wing conspiracy theories.” Yeah same theories the member for Manila , Craigh Kelly as well as uncle Rupe’s various sewers and our very own ipa-bot are spouting .. context , nuance anyone? Wait for the programmed response …it’s all the left commie red socialist antifa nazies fault waaaaaah

  60. Yes, an unarmed woman that served 4 tours murder buy the police.
    Celebrate on Ootz.

    I note that left are very selective toward the police they want to defund.

  61. US transport, education secretaries latest to quit in Trump staff exodus after Capitol violence. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-08/four-more-trump-national-security-aides-resign/13042874
    “US Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao and Education Secretary Betsy DeVos have resigned, joining a growing list of aides leaving President Donald Trump’s administration in protest over the storming of the US Capitol building.
    Key points:
    The sudden exodus suggested revulsion over Mr Trump’s encouragement of supporters to march to the Capitol
    The departures could deprive him of critical advice in the event of an international crisis in his final days in office
    Mr Trump’s pledge of an “orderly transition” on January 20 was partly intended to head off further resignations
    Ms Chao — the wife of Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell — said in an email to staff that the mob attack “has deeply troubled me in a way that I simply cannot set aside”.
    She said her resignation will take effect on Monday.
    In a letter to Trump, Ms DeVos said the attack on the Capitol was unconscionable.
    “There is no mistaking the impact your rhetoric had on the situation, and it is the inflection point for me,” she wrote, adding her resignation would be effective on Friday.
    With less than two weeks left of Donald Trump’s Presidency, many aides were already heading for the door, making some of their resignations symbolic gestures”
    Puts the US in a vulnerable position and further undermines the handover.
    Any President who cares about America should resign RIGHT NOW for the sake of the country.

  62. “” Celebrate on Ootz.””

    Cunning how it attempts to read my mind again. I am intrigued why it constantly project its own programming on to me? Maybe I’ll use some reverse psychology next time and see how it’s coding will respond.

    Capitol police says, officer dies after riots.

    Two cabinet members and several White House officials resign following the violence and riot at US Capitol. Are the rats leaving the sinking ship or is that just an euphemism for getting fired from the dear leader as it happened regularly before in the White House as on the set of his show.

  63. Zoot, I’ll respond for the bot:
    “It’s an antifa insurgent!”

    Some so called journalist and commentators make a living saying things like that. Others build up whole media empires incentivise such with editorial directives. Again others get elected by supporting or ignoring such false claims. And bots vote and root for politicians who support or ignore such claims.

    It neatly illustrates the dilemma the GOP is facing, they made a Faustian pact and now the devil is calling in his side of the ledger. According to some poll I saw from the Independent, roughly half the republican voters do not agree with what has happened at the Capitol.

    Yet on 11 June last year the PM was reported to say: BLM protests “completely unacceptable” and calls for demonstrators to be charged. Where as now he refuses to condemn Trump for inciting “distressing violence” in the US Capitol and pulling up couple of his MPs for spreading same incitement. Apparently he is gone on holiday again won’t be back till the 18th. That’s right, he does not hold fire hoses, sorry nearly forgotten about that one.

  64. zoot, I too have had experience with family members detaching from reality. I don’t see Trump quite the same way.

    I think niece Mary Trump’s account of him is on the money, a personality that never developed in proper form, that lacks empathy, has never been loved, has never done an honest day’s work, dangerous and quite unsuited to be POTUS.

    My son Mark tells me he wanted to escape to Scotland, but they would not let him in.

    There are serious questions about why the place was not better protected, with some suggesting the components of the National Guard were held back from intervening.

    I think he’s properly stuffed his legacy now, and made any notions of a run by him or any of his brood in 2024 unviable, for which the world should be grateful.

  65. Brian,
    “” “National security equities” may have been among the records stolen from the Capitol on Wednesday when pro-Trump insurgents stormed the building and looted several congressional offices, the Justice Department said in a briefing Thursday.””

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/07/capitol-hill-riots-doj-456178

    The justice dept is fuming, there are other reports of off duty police and defence personnel participated in the rioting. There are images of guys with bundles of hand ties roaming the scene and there is a theory out there, that selected members of the house were targeted in an attempt to stop them doing the Biden thing. Abduction, just as with the Governor of Michigan Gretchen Widmer case few month ago, but apparently they did not have their act together.

    Either way not a good look. Can we really trust the US to have its collective shit together while we poke Ji X’s backside with a stick they supplied us with?

  66. Must agree with you Brian, we must be great full.

    In someway Trump is just this tragic Shakespearean character who burst the huge pimple that has maligned an outstanding nation for some time and by default us too. From the security of its seat of democracy to the frailties of the electoral system, the the systemic greed and excesses, the grotesque delusion factories dividing the nation. We have a clear picture, there like a naked truth.

    He always said he’ll drain the swamp, not sure it’s exactly how he envisaged it, surely he’d have preferred not to be a part of the puss oozing out of that pimple in stead.

  67. Nicola Sturgeon, who is in charge of Scotland, was asked if Mr Trump (as he soon will be) might arrive in Scotland to play golf.

    She replied that people were being allowed into Scotland only “for essential purposes” and she did NOT regard playing golf as “essential”.

    I like these leaders who retain a quiet sense of irony while the Tantrum Brat throws his world-astounding hissy fits.

    Mr T has now officially announced he will not attend the forthcoming inauguration. Good.

    Brian, I agree that Mr T’s niece’s published observations are looking more and more plausible and accurate as this all plays out.

    ***
    If I may digress to Mr J for a moment, I thought your repeated use during the last couple of years of the American terminology RINO (Republican in Name Only), indicated your general sympathy with the Tea Party section of the Republicans.

    But it’s not important, really.

  68. On a positive note, and substituting DJT for RMN (1962), we “won’t have Donsld T to kick around any more!”

    Soon.
    Quite soon.

  69. Senator Murkowski steps forward:

    Republican Lisa Murkowski became the first senator to call for Trump to resign and said she may no longer have a future in the party.

    “I want him to resign,” Murkowski said in an interview with the Anchorage Daily News. “I want him out. He has caused enough damage.

    She added:” I will tell you, if the Republican Party has become nothing more than the party of Trump, I sincerely question whether this is the party for me.

  70. A few words from Pres-E Biden:

    Biden said that Trump’s decision to skip the swearing in ceremony was “one of the few things he and I have ever agreed on”.

    “It’s a good thing him not showing up,” he said.

    It was a change in position for Biden, who said last month that he hoped Trump would be present at his inauguration to symbolise the peaceful transfer of power.

    Asked why he had changed his mind, Biden said: “Because he’s exceeded even my worst notions about him … He’s been an embarrassment to the country.

    Biden did not say whether he is supporting the accelerating push by House Democrats to impeach Trump for a second time.

    Several House Democrats are expected to introduce articles of impeachment on Tuesday (AEDT)

    – from the ‘news wires’

  71. “She added:” I will tell you, if the Republican Party has become nothing more than the party of Trump, I sincerely question whether this is the party for me.“
    The US primary system allowed the Tea Party to gain a lot of power in the Republican party. All Tea party followers needed to do was register as “Republicans” Result can be a lot candidates that were closer to what the Tea party types wanted. How candidates are selected can be a problem no matter what system is used.

  72. Mr A

    If I may digress to Mr J for a moment, I thought your repeated use during the last couple of years of the American terminology RINO (Republican in Name Only), indicated your general sympathy with the Tea Party section of the Republicans.

    The term RINO refers to Republican politicians that would be more at home as a Democrat. There are also DINOs for the same reason.
    Don’t forget that Trump was a registered Democrat for most of his voting life.

    Then there are the Tea party that are predominantly strict Constitutionalist types.

    The thing about Libertarians is they are in the middle, for and against issues from both directions, so they cop scorn from both the left and right when all they boil down to are advocates for freedom. I think most folk have a libertarian stripe in them but either fear or religion ( same thing basically) overwhelm it.

  73. Oh, I assume most human beings love liberty Mr J.

    That, however, is a very long way away from “hav (ing) a libertarian stripe in them”.

    Over here, many voters thought Mr Turnbull was Liberal in Name Only; while from the left, many opined that Mr Hawke and Mr Keating were Labor in Name Only.

    Still, we have to deal with the actual, current POTUS; and the actual, current Aussie PM. Their actions speak louder than their labels.

  74. Oh, agreed Mr A, forget the labels, commentariat and rhetoric.
    I would put Biden’s accomplishments, in 48 years in government as pathetic.
    Trumps pre covid accomplishments were fairly ok in 3 years by comparison.

    For the US and Australia.

    It’s batten down the hatches for the non left now.

    But that’s ok, hardship builds character.

  75. Jumpy: “The thing about Libertarians is they are in the middle, for and against issues from both directions, so they cop scorn from both the left and right when all they boil down to are advocates for freedom. I think most folk have a libertarian stripe in them but either fear or religion ( same thing basically) overwhelm it.”
    Listening to you over time I would have said that your type of libertarianism is generally down on governments, government taxes and the sort of government activities that restrict the activities of some business rogues. (Think Clive Palmer. Dunno how bad you are in practice.)
    Sure I am irritated from time to time by some restrictions and government activities but I think we need to look at things case by rather than chanting private is best or vice versa.

  76. John, there are many types of business people. Litigant arseholes like Clive , taxpayer reliant sponges, Gov/ Private CoOps, bribing gift givers, environmental vandals like Ross Guano ( Oktedi and carbon tax infamy)…to name a few. None of them are Free Market Capitalists by any stretch of the imagination.

    I wish more folk understood the clear differentiation, it’s really very simple.

  77. Could someone, in there own words, tell me in what ways Trump has gone against their Constitution please ?

    What I’m seeing is the ongoing trashing of it by Democrats for decades.

    Im simply at a loss to explain the media(D) justification for their claims.

    Fair dinkum inquiry.

  78. Yep.
    Trouble is questioning if it is yourself that could be blind, try it zoot.

    Why the fuck would I engage here if not for that reason.

    ( not a question)

  79. Why the fuck would I engage here if not for that reason.

    How very positive of you.
    First point to note is that you never “engage” here.
    And that leads into the answer to your “(not a question)” – it’s because you’re looking for a stoush.
    If you were sincerely seeking information you would be searching the internet (I believe you use DuckDuckGo on the rare occasions you actually look for answers) preferably for those constitutional scholars who could provide you with a definitive answer.
    Now get back under your bridge.

  80. Ha ha, so be it.
    I’m not interested in changing you zoot, that gets me and mine nowhere better, I’m interested in improving my understanding.

    Have a wonderful evening.

  81. A fellow in Nine Newspapers, Nicholas Fandos, has written about whether there would be any point in impeaching Pres T in the last few days of his incumbency.

    He includes this:
    While it may seem pointless to impeach a president just as he is about to leave office, there could be real consequences for Trump beyond the stain on his record. If he were convicted, the Senate could vote to bar him from ever holding office again. Following a conviction, the constitution says the Senate can consider “disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honour, trust or profit under the United States”.

    Only a simple majority of senators would have to agree to successfully disqualify Trump, who is contemplating another run for president in 2024, an appealing prospect not just to Democrats but to many Republicans who are eyeing their own runs.

    …. a bit of self-interest can be a spur to all kinds of behaviour…

  82. I’m interested in improving my understanding.

    In which case you’ll spend less time here looking for an argument and more time exercising your DuckDuckGo skills. Go for it.

  83. Mr A, the Dems may very well do the impeachment thing again.
    Normal symbolic over substance manoeuvre for most politicians.

    The chances of him running at 78 after all the decadence he and his family could do with his Billions is pretty slim I recon.

    C’mon Man !!

    (:

  84. As an example of what can be done with DuckDuckGo:
    For anybody interested the Articles of Impeachment are here.
    Of course if, like Jumpy, you believe inciting insurrection is one of the duties of POTUS don’t waste your time reading them.

  85. Impeachment, like all political acts, has an element of theatre, Mr J.

    If I may return to the impeachment of R. Nixon, for a moment: this was the culmination of many months of press revelations, work by a special prosecutor, hearings in the House. The aim was to find out if the Pres had been involved in improper or criminal acts and decisions.

    R. Nixon resigned before his Senate trial.
    His resignation was not “purely symbolic”.

    Or are you of the alternative view, that an entirely legitimate American style removal of a President is by assassination??

    Is that why it’s important to have so many citizens armed? Was Lee Oswald a patriotic hero? Did Ronald Reagan deserve to die by shooting?

    Or back here, indeed, did Arthur Calwell deserve to be shot dead?

  86. Warning: attempted analogies……

    Banning a miscreant business executive from ever holding a directorship again, is not purely symbolic (a local analogy).

    It’s a small act which may help prevent another fraudster from stealing from citizens and businesses.

    A bankrupt, as I understand it, can be barred from trading for a while. Unpaid debts, folk have lost out, businessses unpaid; you know all this.

    Sometimes, in spectacularly rotten cases, a “lifetime ban” is one small element of commercial justice.

    Well, suppose a former politician is banned from running for office. My guess is that he couldn’t then solicit campaign donations; consequently he couldn’t trouser such donations for his private expenses. One small step for a man; one giant advance for political integrity (if such exists).

    One of the non-symbolic effects of public punishment is to set out clearly some of the ground rules under which the Republic/nation is meant to function. It’s a bit like “draining a swamp”.

  87. “The sick politics at the heart of this week’s US crisis go deeper than Donald Trump.” Thoughtful one from Stan Grant on the long standing problems that beset the US. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-10/us-toxic-politics-started-long-before-donald-trump-arrived/13042856
    “This week’s insurrection in Washington has been shocking but not at all surprising. It’s part of a long deep unravelling of America.
    “The angry mobs storming the Capitol building reflect a broken country where tens of millions of people have traded the American dream for American carnage and no longer know what truth is.
    American politics, business and media have been complicit in delivering the US to this moment.
    The sad scene of a country that billed itself as a beacon of democracy now — always contestable anyway — tearing itself apart has also revealed the hypocrisy of those condemning it.”

  88. John, there is much insight and truth in what Stan Grant says, but in the end he suffers from a disease that pervades ABC news, which is that ‘balance’ must be preserved, even at the expense of truth.

    So if one side of politics does or says something unmentionable, then the equivalent must be found on the other side of politics.

    In my humble view there is simply no equivalence between how Bill Clinton described his sexual fetish and George Dubya mounting a shooting war on terrorism on the basis of carefully and deliberately confected ‘evidence’.

    Any way, thanks for the link. Here are a few YouTubes people may wish to have a look at. The longest is the last which runs to a little over 15 minutes.

    First we have a video of the Trump family and hangers on watching the insurrection (it has to be called something more than a riot) on TV Trump family watching mayhem.

    Then we have a Must-See New Video Shows Capitol Riot Was Way Worse Than We Thought

    Then psychoanalyst Dr Lance Dodes saying Trump is a delusional psychopath.

    I’m sorry, but Trump is not his patient. Psychiatric categories are problematic, and as I have said upstream I think Mary Trump has a better handle on what we are dealing with

    Speaking of whom, Mary Trump did an interview on the day of the event, before the Senate finalised the certification of the College votes, wherein she Predicts A “Dangerous” Next Two Weeks Under the Trump Administration.

    She said the Trump simply does not know how to lose, and acts out of fear. He is afraid of the criminal charges emanating from state jurisdictions, and on the banks foreclosing on him.

    She is concerned about the 12 senators and 140 Republican house members who continue to support Trump in spite of his actions.

    She says that Mike Pence will now be dead to Trump, because he didn’t do what he was never able to do – control rather than just preside over the Senate.

    Along the way we are told that the Pentagon actively inhibited calling in the National Guard, which finally acted when Pence intervened.

    Trump saying he would not attend Biden’s inauguration was interpreted by some as a signal to the insurgents to do their worst. Pence saying he will be there gives some comfort that the security will be first class.

    Meanwhile where’s Melania? Some are suggesting she may have just slipped quietly out of Washington with her son Barron to wait out the frightful end days in the Trumps’ Mar-a-Lago mansion, she must be contemplating the future.

  89. That “must see video” is particularly troubling, with a criwd chanting “hang Pence”.

    This after the Pres tweeted weeks ago “(the demo) will be wild”.

    How wild is adequately wild, Mr Pres??

  90. From journalists named Woodward and Riechmann (Nine newspapers):

    US President Donald Trump left plenty of clues he’d try to burn the place down on his way out the door.

    The clues spread over a lifetime of refusing to acknowledge defeat. They spanned a presidency marked by raw, angry rhetoric, puffed-up conspiracy theories and a kind of fellowship with “patriots” drawn from the seething ranks of right-wing extremists. The clues piled on at light speed when Trump lost the election and wouldn’t admit it.

    The culmination of all that came Wednesday when Trump supporters, exhorted by the president to go to the Capitol and “fight like hell” against a “stolen” election, overran and occupied the building in an explosive confrontation that left a Capitol Police officer and four others dead.

    The mob went there so emboldened by Trump’s send-off at a rally that his partisans live-streamed themselves trashing the place. Trump, they figured, had their back.

    This was, after all, the president who had responded to a right-wing plot to kidnap Michigan’s Democratic governor last year with the comment: “Maybe it was a problem. Maybe it wasn’t.”

    Over the arc of his presidency and his life, by his own words and actions, Trump hated losing and wouldn’t own up to it when it happened. He spun bankruptcies into successes, setbacks in office into glowing achievements, the stain of impeachment into martyrdom.

    What a very peculiar little man he has been.
    He has been.
    Has been.
    Mr Been.
    Over and out.

  91. One of the more troubling comments I’ve heard is that black people at all levels have been gobsmacked by how the authorities responded and how they would have responded if it was black people leading the insurrection.

    There was a lot of anger and violence back in the 1960s to early 1970s. Some think we’ll get the 21st century equivalent, except there are more guns around now.

    That said, Biden’s best bet is simply to govern well, and with the senate in hand he has a chance.

  92. Apparently the FBI has warned of armed assaults on EVERY State Capitol timed for the Inauguration period.

    The thing about this is, no police or Mayor or National Guard will be able to say “we had no warning”.

    If course some of the “chatter” may be bloviating blow hard blokes enjoying making threats…… but who picked Mr McVeigh a)(beforehand) all those decades ago?

  93. I guess you could say that organizations like “Proud boys” are about the insecuriies of white males who fee threatened by the rising power of non-Europeans and women. And see violence as the answer.
    I think there is a problem with some forms of feminism that fight for preference for women instead of equality. (Ex: Quotas for women with no quotas for men – Should say something like “at least 40% people who identify as women and 40% people who identify as men. (This wording came from a wise Greens woman.)
    My wise wife said a long long time ago that women should fighting for “people liberation,” not women’s liberation. She understood how men were often damaged by expectations on men.

  94. This is from an item in “The Onion” (a silly American humorous website) which I believe appeared in November 2020:

    On January 20, 2021, Donald Trump will leave office at the end of his presidential term, coup permitting. Here’s what President Trump hopes to accomplish over his final two months in office.

    An unfathomably high amount of document shredding.

    Sunrise yoga on the National Mall.

    Finally follow through on campaign pledge to stand in middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody.

    Hold yard sale to raise money for legal battles and recounts.

    Award Twitter user @920274749_000 the Presidential Medal of Valor for unwavering support over past four years.

    Humor the hapless boys and girls in intelligence by listening to even one morning briefing.

    Honor the teachings of his Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

    Install ultrasonic alarms to torment Joe Biden’s dogs 24 hours a day.

    Get his father’s ghost to say one kind thing.

    As presidential tradition goes, leave the country in a worse place than he found it.

    Those satire writers…….the fools!

  95. Can be a bit tricky John!!

    Recently the author Mary T****, who published a book about her uncle Donald T**** and his personality traits, has been praised for her foresight.

    I recall some readers were sceptical when her book first appeared. She had empirical experience to work with, but it was insider knowledge unavailable to journalists and psychoanalysts. Therefore considered suspect.

    I remember being singularly unimpressed by Dr Freud’s book on Leonardo from Vinci. It pretended to “analyse” Leonardo’s innermost thoughts. But as far as I know, the bloke from Vinci was never on the doctor’s couch. Codswallop, I opined. (Similar to Brian’s reaction to armchair “psychoanalysis” of a politician.)

    But Mary didn’t need to have her subject chatting on a couch. She’d seen him on private moments, unguarded etc. Then followed publically available information. Then her subject went on the telly. Did interviews.

    Contrast Leonardo.

  96. “US Capitol rioter Jacob Chansley asks for presidential pardon, saying he was ‘answering the call’ of Donald Trump” Jacob is the one wearing horns in a lot of pictures.) https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-15/qanon-shaman-asks-for-presidential-pardon-for-us-capitol-raid/13061998
    “The lawyer for the US Capitol siege rioter known as the “QAnon shaman” has asked for a presidential pardon for his client, as another member of the mob who stormed the building faces court for allegedly planning to take hostages using zip-tie handcuffs.”
    “Jacob Chansley — who is known as the “QAnon shaman” for following the QAnon conspiracy theory and being photographed wearing a fur hat, face paint and holding a spear — has been charged with unlawful and violent entry of the Capitol building, as well as “active participation in an insurrection” to overthrow the US Government.
    But his lawyer Albert Watkins told CNN Mr Chansley was not a violent person and should be pardoned as he felt “he was answering the call” of Mr Trump by entering the building.”
    Wonder if Trump will pardon any who are alleged to have answered his call?

  97. This story, just as you think it’s probably reached Bizarre Level 10, dials itself up to 11.

    Stephen Colbert has been good.

    “These numbskulls identified themselves to reporters. ”

    Why didn’t Bigo remember the New York Times motto is “All the News that’s Admissible as Evidence in Court”?

    (Used to be “All the News that’s Fit to Print “)

    Golleeeeeee

  98. Meanwhile the ABC’s internal language police are doing double backflips with pike.

    First they banned calling what happened on Capitol Hill as an “insurrection” because it might not be.

    Then when they booked at what everyone saw they said there was “now overwhelming prima facie evidence of ‘insurrection’ as defined in US law and in the Macquarie Dictionary”.

    What’s more the joint chiefs of staff issued a written statement describing the attack on the Capitol as “violence, sedition and insurrection”.

    Still, they would prefer that “insurrection” be used with attribution. That is the ABC could report others calling it “insurrection”, but they would prefer that the ABC didn’t upset the Trumpistas.

    Then they referred to Craig Kelly’s untruths about Covid-19 as “unofficial information”. When they worked out they were wrong they substituted the phrase “misleading coronavirus information”.

    Still short of the ungarnished truth, I think, but we are seeing how the ABC’s desire for ‘balance’ prevents them from calling a spade a spade.

  99. It would take a weird reasoning to believe those unarmed knobheads were attempting to overthrow the Government and rule in their stead.
    You would also have to say that all the BLM/antifart riots and CHAZ/CHOP were insurrections as well and those that “ encouraged “ them should be impeached from their office and jailed.

    But consistency of logic is getting extremely scarce of late. I hope it returns some day.

    Oh, do we have the name of the officer that shot and killed the unarmed white woman yet ?

  100. Jumpy, I understand the authorities are going through the video footage with a view to laying charges. I haven’t personally followed this closely.

    This article gives some detail, but is now over a week old.

  101. Oh they’ll go though this one like bacon though a duck, that’s for sure.

    It’s a pity the politicians and media haven’t been so bothered by the last 6 months of riots, violence, arson, threats and murders by the left. No,no, just arrest them and release without charge.

    But all of a sudden a few loonbag larpers, supposedly of the right go to their workplace then pearls are clutched, FBI spooks go apeshit and every Republican should be ashamed and culpable.

    Good luck with Unity in the US when both halves of the country feel they’re being treated unequally and can’t speak to each other.

  102. Mr J

    It appears that some of the intruders went prepared, to seize Congresspersons.

    To hold hostage?
    To give them a strong talking-to?
    To force them to vote against Biden’s confirmation?

    If a chap takes Molotov cocktails in his car, my guess is that he’s not preparing for a picnic or a visit to a museum or a stroll in a park. What’s your opinion?

    If a chap takes these plastic doovers (like cable ties) is he hoping to fix Speaker Pelosi’s bedraggled indoor plants, would you say?

    If a chap takes a shotgun into the woods, does it look like he’s a lepidopterist searching for a rare butterfly species?

    That surgeon who took a bone saw to the Saudi Embassy in Turkey just before Mr Khasshogi was due to call in for a visa: do you reckon he had any idea why the boss told him to take his bone saw? Do they sell really horrible lamb chops in Turkey?

    Or is the answer sometimes as bleeding obvious as it appears to be at first sight? See prima facie.

    I think anyone who faces a murderous mob in their workplace is entitled to clutch pearls. We had an idiot kill people in Melb circa 1989 in his former workplace. Pearls? Another idiot decided to shoot random motorists on Hoddle Street, a major inner city thoroughfare, in the dark. Pearls aplenty.

    I trust there were pearl merchants plying their trade outside the Christchurch mosque just before the Aussie gunman arrived. Though the bloke who clutched a heavy object and hurled it at the shooter likely saved a few lives.

    So, in J World it’s OK to march into the legislative building chanting “Hang XYZ!” is it???

  103. No Mr A but trump is no more culpable than Sanders was when James Hodgkinson shot up Republican politicians at a congressional baseball practice in 2017.

    Or Pelosi saying she wanted more uprisings in the streets.

    Look at trumps full speech that day, he said he wanted a peaceful protest.

    If the media(D) want to change the definition of “ peaceful protest “ over the last 6 month then the confusion is on them.

  104. Jumpy, I was nearly finished a long comment in response, hit a wrong key, and lost the lot. I’m not doing it again.

    However, you have to get through your skull that this event has no equivalence in American history.

    According to this Slate article, the US is now an anocracy, rather than a democracy, that is “a country with both democratic and autocratic features.”

    That is according to the Polity Index, apparently widely quoted by political scientists. Here is what they said:

      The USA has dropped below the “democracy threshold” (+6) on the POLITY scale in 2020 and
      and is now considered an anocracy (+5). It has also lost its designation as the world’s oldest, continuous democracy;
      that designation now belongs to Switzerland (171 years), followed by New Zealand (142) and the United Kingdom (139).
      Further degradation of democratic authority in the USA will trigger an Adverse Regime Change event.

    I was alerted to this change by an article in the AFR by Aynne Kokas, associate professor of media studies at the University of Virginia and a senior faculty fellow at its Miller Centre for Public Affairs and Oriana Skylar Mastro, a center fellow at the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies at Stanford University and a research fellow at the American Enterprise Institute – The soft war that America is losing.

    They say that the US depends far more on its soft power than authoritarian China does. Once it is lost, it is hard to get back.

    They also say that the US will forever be seen as a country in which Trump’s election and the storming of the Capitol were possible. Rather than the Statue of Liberty this is what typifies America:

  105. The latest score is:

      As of Friday morning, Michael Sherwin, acting US attorney for the District of Columbia, said his office had brought 98 criminal prosecutions so far and opened investigations into more than 275 people in connection with the Capitol riots, in which Mr Trump’s supporters stormed the building, ransacked offices and in some cases, attacked police.

      Court filings in the cases suggested some of the rioters came prepared with weapons, gas masks, ballistic vests and zip ties.

      The people charged included a retired firefighter who reportedly hurled a fire extinguisher at police, a man accused of attacking police with a flag pole and another suspect who officials said was caught with explosives and firearms in his truck near the Capitol building.

  106. Brian, you have got to understand the vast majority of “ learning influence “ institutions in the US are totally dominated by the left that are getting radically leftist. The MSM, Hollywood, Silicon Valley social media conglomerates, the vast majority of School teachers, Wall Street ( yes, biggest donor to Biden, far more than trump), Sporting administration, and even Doctors.

    If you can’t see that there needs to be a balance, cooperation, civil dialogue and comprises between left and right and never ever take an equal sacrifice but force your will regardless then expect blowback and a correction.

    The left don’t want unity, they want total submission and dominance. There’s an inevitable cost for that.

    People can be wrong in YOUR opinion but that shouldn’t mean they’re EVIL !!!! or mentally ill.

    The left need to turn the hate down from 11 or we’ll all suffer, everyone.

  107. On the topic of US democracy, the US has certainly fallen from what I’ve seen.

    The has been a single woman arrested for harvesting at least 7000 Biden votes illegally in Texas of all places. That’s just one criminal in one county.

    Project Veritas caught her on film admitting it.

    Don’t blind yourself Mate, one eyed is no way to finish your time on Earth.

  108. The comic touches continue:
    Grauniad:
    Donald Trump has fallen out with his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, and is refusing to pay the former New York mayor’s legal bills, it was reported, with the president feeling abandoned and frustrated during his last days in office.

    Giuliani played a key role in Trump’s failed attempts to overturn the results of November’s presidential election through the courts. The lawyer mounted numerous spurious legal challenges, travelling to swing states won by Joe Biden, and spread false claims the vote was rigged.

    Now look, I really do understand that Mr T**** had a habit of not paying subbies in his developer days, and a relative of mine met someone who’d had similar treatment from Mr T****; but he’s in office, he sends Rudi off on a wild goose chase; Goose Rudi complies; the Pres reneges.

    Sue him, Rudi! Get into Court and spill some beans, old bean!
    Popcorn manufacturers the world over are hoping you do.
    🙂
    positive enough, Mr J?

  109. Not very positive from my point Mr A because I thought you better than a gullible parrot.

    Do you ever question anything the Guardian propagandises ?

    Try independent journalists with audiovisual proof rather than media conglomerates that are desperate for salacious panic outrage clicks. That’s be a positive outcome..

    Hilarious, theres a T word now, hahaha.

  110. Let me indulge in asking Two questions.
    Do you think there were ANY votes cast that were illegitimate?
    And if you’re sane and honest, can you be positive of the volume ?

    Don’t forget, the US just had 4 years of a non accepted election result from the left. What in the world does a realistic logical prediction expect.

  111. Gullible’s Travels
    Gullible’s Travails

    (On parrots, Mr J, when Melbourne 60s bad boy Albert Langer [Maoist] broke with the miniscule
    CPA-ML = Communist Party of Australia – Marxist-Leninist
    Mr Langer referred to his erstwhile comrades as
    “Chinese Parrots of Australia”
    Neat, eh?
    “CPA”. See what he did there?

    On parrots, I prefer Monty Python’s Dead Parrot Sketch; even Margaret Thatcher quoted it.

    On Monty Python, sailors on a sinking British Navy vessel, during the war with Argentina circa 1982, assembled on the deck and sang “Always Look on the Bright Side of Life!”

    Now, that is a tribute.)

    Ignoring your mention of “The Guardian”; see what I did there?

    By the way, if I quoted from Jesus of Nazareth, or Mahatma Gandhi, or Abraham Lincoln, or Simone Weil; would I then also be a “parrot”?

  112. The has been a single woman arrested for harvesting at least 7000 Biden votes illegally in Texas of all places.

    Link please (“E…Vid…Ence or your pants self combust.”)
    NB: You’ll need at least another 100,000 examples to change the election result.

    Try independent journalists with audiovisual proof rather than media conglomerates that are desperate for salacious panic outrage clicks.

    Link please (“E…Vid…Ence or your pants self combust.”)
    And please, not a link to welovetrump.com.

    Do you think there were ANY votes cast that were illegitimate?

    Well now that you mention it, yes I do.
    In Pennsylvania two dead people attempted to vote and one live person tried to vote twice. All were votes for Trump.

  113. Words of unity and healing from my favourite US Political Commentator.

    I’ve never seen so much concentrated losing in a such a short period of time, it must be like experiencing 100 years of Cubs baseball condensed into a single crotch punt. Lost the election in slow motion, re-lost it some 60-odd times over in every courtroom in America, and then, just when it looked like he’d still get to slip away to a life of comfort and influence, decided to strap Louie Gohmert’s Worst Idea to his own scrotum and let it drag him balls-first to bottom of the fucking sea, ensuring all the books to come end with a “and then, yeah, he pulled a Hitler,” chapter.

  114. Jumpy, I enjoy talking to sensible, rational people who describe themselves as ‘conservatives’, or ‘liberals’, but they are hard to find. Usually I find that they perceive reality in a different way than I do, but there is plenty of common turf, and that is OK.

    I try to explore issues by asking questions respectfully.

    However, I’m yet to find a libertarian who is not filled with paranoia.

  115. The has been a single woman arrested for harvesting at least 7000 Biden votes illegally in Texas of all places. That’s just one criminal in one county.

    It appears Jumpy is referring to Raquel Rodriguez, a consultant for Republican House candidate Mauro Garza (bullshit detectors vibrating yet?) and at the end of October 2020 she hadn’t been arrested. (Perhaps Jumpy has more recent news of her arrest).
    From the link:
    She admitted that “some of my Republicans are precinct chairs” secretly “want to help Biden.” (apparently English is not her first language).
    She said she’s paid to flip votes for Biden at a cost of “five to eight dollars per vote.
    “Yeah, that’s what I’m doing. That’s exactly what I’m getting paid to do,” she said.
    So the story is some Republicans have paid her to get votes for Biden; not enough votes to have any real impact, but it seems Jumpy thinks this means Trump won the election???

  116. BTW as far as I know, getting out the vote is not illegal, but paying voters, which this woman may have done (at $5 to $8 per voter????) is against the law.

  117. Zoot. Ah yes Texas! Wasn’t that the state where the Republican Gov allowed only one place in Sydney sized Houston for early votes to be handed in? Seemed like cheating to me.

  118. However, I’m yet to find a libertarian who is not filled with paranoia.

    Brian, I would have said full of something else (brown and sticky and not Nutella).

  119. Brian, John, zoot
    and Mr J

    Another hilarious attitude (mentioned above) is that “getting out the vote”* has been painted as outrageously unfair.

    And yet it’s a well-known tactic which is iften discussed in the UK, the US etc. polities where voting is entirely voluntary.

    Examples: will Bernie supporters somply stay at home in 2016 because Hillary cheated her way to the nomination?

    Will supporters of the French Presidential candidates Pierre and Marcel who came 3rd and 4th simply abstain from voting in the run-off election?

    UK parties organising taxis or volunteers to get old or carless voters to a polling place.

    * plenty of methods exist : a favourite tactic in the US is quite elementary. … Get the citizen’s name onto the electoral roll; or reinstate the name if it’s been removed.

    I believe we all are aware of all of this.
    Apologies for the lecture.

    It amazes me how partisans can gloss over simple facts and grab at ludicrous stories.

    BTW Mr Qanon Hornswaggler Painty Face Fancy Dress has asked through his lawyer for a Presidential Pardon. I find that very, very funny. Does Mr Fancy Dress possess the intellect of a pre-school child?

  120. Ambi, I read he thinks he deserves a pardon because he only did what Mr Trump told him to do.

    Dennis Atkins, having retired from years of faithful service as the Courier Mail’s national affairs reporter is having fun writing what he couldn’t in a Murdoch rag.

    His Scott Morrison unmasked: What the PM’s cowardly response to the Capitol riots reveals is priceless.

    Alisair Drysdale, a long term servant of the Liberal Party, was the No.2 in Malcolm Fraser’s press office, and later worked for Jeff Kennett, was the nice guy who used charm not belligerence. Now he’s fired off a tweet:

      “Morrison has been unmasked,” began Drysdale. “His refusal to openly condemn Trump’s behaviour and legacy is the deliberate act of a weak, spineless and character-free Prime Minister.

      At a pivotal time in world history, Morrison retreated. He didn’t want to tell the truth for one reason – politics.”

    Atkins said Drysdale’s Tweet hit hard because it was unarguable, and contrasts with other leaders, such as Boris Johnson, Angela Merkel, Emmanuel Macron, Justin Trudeau, Jacinda Adern and others.

    See also Michael Pascoe From QAnon to climate denial, Australia has a ‘Ratbag Government’.

  121. Now look here.
    This was a few weeks ago, before the peaceful demonstration.

    The President said, “Proud Boys, stand down.”

    He was filmed and televised saying it.
    On the public record now.

    Textual analysis:
    I am the spiritual leader of a private militia in addition to being Commander In Chief of the regular Armed Forces. I ask that the PB militia members stand down for the time being. I will call on you later as events unfold. You have pledged your fealty to me. I love you. You are true patriots.

    Of course I’m not an adviser to the Pres, nor a resident in the US. But I trust that “analysis” to be generally fair and correct.

    No need to focus exclusively on the Day of Peace on Washington; I reckon the above was (by itself ) impeachable. A misdemeanor and a high crime.

    ****

    When R Nixon was impeached circa 1974, some wanted to add “secret bombing of Cambodia” to the charge sheet. As I recall they stuck to Watergate related crimes. Keep it simple.

    ****
    But very soon “you won’t have DT to kick around any more! ”

    I’m hoping DT will try his version of ‘The Chequers Speech’.

  122. Let’s start a book on the pardons.

    The one I want to see goes to a dinkum Aussie boy, Mr Assange, “for services during the 2016 Pres election”.

    About 10/1 I reckon.

    Trump family?
    Rudi?
    Moose Horn man??

  123. Yes,yes Mr A, those nasty white supremacist Proud Boys with an Afro-Cuban President!!

    I’m willing to wager the Proud Boys are more multicultural than Antifart.

  124. Yes,yes Mr A, those nasty white supremacist Proud Boys with an Afro-Cuban President!!

    Obviously you’re not familiar with the contemporary meaning of the term “Uncle Tom” or the infighting initiated by a prominent member who said

    We will no longer cuck to the left by appointing token negroes as our leaders.

    as quoted here.

  125. Wow, zoot is calling a coloured fellow an “ Uncle Tom “

    That’s some shameful shit right there.

    I formally state, as a participant of this microblog, that I distance myself totally from the racist statements of zoot !

  126. That’s some shameful shit right there.

    Really? Obviously I disagree, but I’ll happily stand beside Malcolm X.
    An interesting aspect of the term is that originally Uncle Tom was a heroic character who used non-violent resistance and gave his life to protect others who had escaped from slavery.
    The success of the novel led to it becoming an equally popular stage play, but to make him more palatable to white audiences the character was depicted as inappropriately subservient to white slaveholders. This led to the current derogatory implications of his name. Interesting no?

  127. Jumpy

    zoot is referring to a novel “Uncle Tom’s Cabin”, almost as seminal as “Huckleberry Finn”, ranking with “Great Gatsby”, “Citizen Kane” etc in its social after-effects.

    But you knew that.

    I was not referring to white supremacy.
    I was referring to small but influential militia groups. Now and then, one of these breaks into the headlines; sadly, some tiny groups have cult religious undertones (Waco, Jonesville).

    Do you see that the whirlwind being reaped in Washington now is partly due to having so many patriots armed to the teeth?

    What happened in the Day of Peace has shocked many Americans to the core. Had yiu noticed?

    Mr Nixon may have lost in 1960 due to voting shenanigans. He conceded.

    Mr Gore lost in the famous “hanging chads” recount in Florida. Did he spend weeks in the courts? No. He conceded.

    Some candidates are civic-minded and polite. Some respect traditions. Others don’t.

  128. Did I cheer on rioters last American summer? No.

    I must admit to being influenced by media to this extent.

    1. In 2016 I thought both Pres candidates very low quality and found it boring until the cat-grabbing tape was released . Overnight my interest was piqued.

    2. In 2021 I had list all interest in the Donald and Rudi Show as it stumbled from court to court. Sore losers. Then thousands if marchers surrounded the Capitol while Congress was in session and dozens forced their way in. Overnight my interest was piqued.

    Immature? Indeed.

    I don’t care whether a militia proclaims right wing, left wing or libertarian ideas.

    The Weather Underground was a murderous crew too. But Tim McVeigh and alQaeda outdid the Weathermen if we use body count as the metric.

    Cheerio

  129. The Weather Underground was a murderous crew too.

    As I recall (and supported by a quick internet search) they only managed to kill three of their own during their rampage.
    (Please, make no mistake, I am not suggesting they were anything other than domestic terrorists)

  130. Mr A, zoot state unequivocally that he was referring to the contemporary meaning not historical or literary.

    It lessens you to run interference for the admitted racist.

  131. In deference to our libertarian thought policeman I shall change my term “Uncle Tom” (please note that I originally put it in quotes as well) to “members of oppressed groups who have internalised the values of their oppressors” (without the quotes).
    Now, let’s get back to Jumpy’s defence of the Proud Goys.

  132. Aparently the Republican reps will be given a concence vote during the impeachment trial. Probably need a secret vote to avoid being targetted by extreme Trump supporters.

  133. More good news: Team Trump breaks a record!

    A new Quinnipiac University poll finds that President Donald Trump’s approval rating stands at 33%, while his disapproval is at 60%. An average of recent polls finds Trump with a 38% approval rating and 59% disapproval rating.
    What’s the point: A big question during the Trump presidency was whether anything could actually move the public opinion needle. It turns out that the insurrection at the US Capitol last week did exactly that.
    The result is that Trump’s final first term approval rating looks to be the lowest on record dating back since scientific polling began.

    So much winning.

  134. Correction to myself.

    Richard Nixon was never impeached.
    He resigned on or about 8th August 1974 to avoid an impeachment vote.

    Hello, zoot, when I wrote “murderous” I intended the meaning that they were prepared to murder (setting bombs, that kind of caper) even if only as a side-effect.

    The IRA used to send coded warnings of bombs. But lives can be lost if the targetted street or building isn’t evacuated in time. I would call domestic terrorists “murderous”. Compare “Red Brigades ” (Italy), RAF Baader-Meinhof (West Germany).

    Murderers if they actually kill.

    Enough of the pedantry.

    Your comments about the novel by Stowe seemed to me mainly literary and historical. Only fools ignore history.

    Apologies for reminiscing about Pres Nixon. Just been reading Dallek’s book about Kissinger and Nixon. Informative, troubling.

  135. John

    It must concentrate the mind of a legislator to have a noose erected just outside the chamber.

    Then zip lock ties in the building and police retreating before the intruders.

    Concentrate the mind something really special.

  136. I wasn’t quibbling with the term murderous. It’s an accurate and appropriate adjective for that particular group of domestic terrorists.

  137. Apologies zoot.

    My pedantry is extensive and certainly leads down paths of irrelevance and obfuscation.

    But to return to the mob…..
    Curious minds may wonder what type of demo Jumpy approves of, and what line (if any) he believes peaceful demonstrators should not cross.

    Going back to BLM, he clearly disapproves of smashing windows, torching buildings and confronting police.

    So – and now I’m only guessing – would the recent group of skylarking enthusiasts in Washington have to have actually burnt the Capitol to the ground to have earned his rebuke? Perhaps killed ten police persons rather than just the one? Could it be they needed to conduct hocus pocus Satanic rituals in the Senate chamber??? Or lynch VP Pence on live TV?? (Ah, the old KKK days, eh??!!)

    Curious minds are easily puzzled. Sometimes it seems to me we have a hyper-partisan in our midst. Commentators in the US fear hyper-partisanship is causing their polity to shake….

    With any luck the tremors won’t cross the Pacific to be mimicked here.

  138. Jumpy: At one stage I worked in a place that had a very nasty strike. Picket lines, vehicles damaged going through picket lines, a brake line cut on a foreman’s vehicle, petrol spilled into a private swimming pool and set alight……. All over an attack on union conveners privileges.
    Made me appreciate what it would be like to live in Northern Ireland during the troubles.
    What was interesting was what happened after the strike. The real radical leaders either left or were replaced by more moderate leaders and support for the unions dropped and eventually the mine became de-unionized. (A lot of union members were shocked by the violence of the confrontation.)
    Similar things happened at Robe River and Hammersley. In the case of Robe the violence of that confrontation eventually led to the end of union power there.
    In the case of Hammersley a long strike over the union leaders divine right to have a union member sacked because he had the hide to disagree with the union leaders. The strike dribbled to a halt when union members revolted and started to go back to work. The company took advantage of the revolt by offering the returning members non-union staff positions.
    In a very short amount of time the Pilbara changed from a union powerhouse to a place where unions had not much, if any power.
    There is a lesson here for the US far right who thought the recent violence against American democracy will strengthen their hand. Wouldn’t be surprised if one of the end results is a dramatic decline in their support and a dramatic reduction in gun ownership and carrying rights.

  139. John, do you foresee the same decline in support for BLM and antifart?

    After all, they haven’t had just one or two protests that turned violent and destructive, they’ve had over 100.

  140. I must applaud Jumpy’s dogged adherence to the principal that if person A does something (illegal, irresponsible, immoral etc etc) that means it is perfectly OK for person B to do something equivalent.
    Sorta like the crimes of Ted Bundy somehow excuse Jeffery Dahmer, or Hitler’s genocide means Pol Pot’s genocide is acceptable.

    For the record, I don’t think Trump dropping the ball on Covid = Hillary’s emails + Benghazi!.
    But you already knew that.

  141. Both A and B should be treated exactly the same on each violation.

    Don’t give me the hypocrisy of turning a blind eye 100 times when you support them then scream bloody murder when you don’t.

    Enforce the law evenly on the merits if each individuals actions or not at all.

  142. Both A and B should be treated exactly the same on each violation.

    Pity that’s not the pattern of policing in the USA.
    It appears you consider an attempt to overthrow a valid election (and the intention to hang the Vice President) the equivalent to protests against the murder of a person in police custody (with a background of many police murders over the years).
    Have I captured your thoughts accurately?
    Do you want to see the people who invaded the Capitol and attacked police officers prosecuted to the full extent of the law? (No equivocation please. It’s a simple yes/no question.)

  143. On the one hand, folk I like are being criticised, but on the other hand Julius Caesar was a murdering, lying tyrant who deserved to be strung up outside the Roman Capitol.

    This is silly.

    There, I’ve said it!

    John, those examples are very interesting. It would appear that many workers were able to work out their own views of the behaviour and attitudes of union officials. I conclude that those persons were NOT robotic followers of the union officials. Who woulda thunk it?

    Seems that you don’t necessarily have to leave your brains at the door when you sign up to join a union.

    For me, it also illustrates this principle : be cautious when someone says “if present trends continue”…… because very often a trend doesn’t continue. Unions were strong in many industries in the 60s, 70s……

  144. Do you want to see the people who invaded the Capitol and attacked police officers prosecuted to the full extent of the law?

    Here’s another question that won’t be answered.
    Jumpy, do you still claim George Soros is financing the Black Lives Matter movement?

  145. Have I captured your thoughts accurately?

    Of course you haven’t, as usual, and you know it. It’s almost as if it’s intentional.

    I want to see all those that are found guilty ( in a Court of Law not media(D) ) of any crime treated treated equally according to the criminal act. I don’t care about the motivation.

  146. I don’t care about the motivation.

    Which is somewhat undercut by your use of the term “media(D)”. But given that you just want to see justice done, can I get you to agree members of the mob which stormed the Capitol should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law?
    Or are you going to equivocate like Trump with his inability to condemn white supremacists (remember “there are good people on both sides”?)
    You’re on record here alleging without a scintilla of evidence that fraudulent votes swung the election to Biden. Even Rudy Guiliani (when addressing a court) said he was not claiming fraud.
    Do you still believe the election was stolen from the Republicans? (This was the justification used by the mob which stormed the Capitol.)
    In the spirit of sharing I am quite comfortable stating that anybody (and I emphasise anybody) who broke the law during the BLM protests should be prosecuted.

  147. Ambi: “I conclude that those persons were NOT robotic followers of the union officials. Who woulda thunk it?”
    It is more complex than that. During the early days of the Pilbara there were some cowboy managers that ignored safety and employee welfare and inspired the growth of a strong union movement. At the mine where I worked a days strike blew a $ million worth of profits so sometimes management gave in when they should have taken a stance. (This problem was particularly strong at Robe River.)
    Union leaders began to think they were all powerful and sometimes treated their members in a way that management would not have been game enough to do.
    Interesting history that ended in the collapse of union power with abuse of power a contributing factor.

  148. Just stumbled across this:

    A ‘Big Lie’ is a propaganda technique used for political purpose. Coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, about the use of a lie so “colossal” that no one would believe that someone “could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously”.

    The claim that Trump won the election is a Big Lie.
    (No, I am not comparing Trump to Hitler.)

  149. Well, looks like zoots mendacity and bile is the signature attitude of this blog given everyone supports it and never challenges it.

    I tried again unsuccessfully, more fool me.

    Stagnation seems to be the preferred state so enjoy.

  150. So Jumpy refuses to be upfront with us regarding where he stands on the current situation in the US.
    In my book that pretty much tells us where he’s coming from.

  151. Ambi: Yep. I was there for yonks and ran a concentrator for a number of years. The job included lots of negotiating with unions as well as being part of company wide negotiating teams. Also meant I spent a lot of time working on culture change.
    Would emphasize that what I say was one persons view backed by Mrs D’s observations. (She is the proud daughter of an underground coal miner. Provided useful guidance re union mindsets and avoiding gross stupidity. (The company is going to do what!!!!!)

  152. “” … more fool me.””
    Holy guacamole, has the bot just past the Turing test?

    John, when I arrived in this country nearly 40 years ago I worked as a production manager of a small section amongst other larger sections. I could not believe the attitude and behaviour displayed in management meetings. Workers on the floor were commonly referred as a$$holes. When the company then got asset stripped and employment progressively cut down, managers thought it great entertainment to keeping their staff in the dark about further retrenchments. Production and services dropped considerably to the extend that the company got sued repeatedly by customers. I could not believe the amount of class war in this country. I use to tell them that, where I come from we did not fight amongst ourselves in a organisation rather we compete the competition. I still have a very low opinion of Australian management, there would be few who would have the skill and adeptness you displayed, never mind the structural environment to deploy them. Never liked much the whole idea of unions and even was able to worm my way out of it when it was compulsory for employment. However, I have a very good understanding why unions exist and still have support. Never understood this whole class war thing neither the Abo bashing. Now somebody please explain to me how we got on to this topic in a Trump post.

  153. Good question Ootz. It may have been in the context of slavery, oppressors, Black Lives Matter and Uncle Tom and where zoot used the phrase “members of oppressed groups who have internalised the values of their oppressors”, and then John taking that up in a union context.

    I’m not expert on work relations but I suspect it has to do with the British upper class and their contempt for convicts as trash and ditto for Irish Catholics, then extending that to reffos (Continental refugees after WW2.)

    My understanding is that in spite of the riven nature of the US their management practices are generally way better than ours.

    Back near the topic, some do worry that Morrison and company are basically ‘Trump-lite’.

  154. Thanks Brian, hope you were not affected by the biblical rain recently.

    In news to the radical freedom fanatics and deniers of responsibilities, including their mindless bots:

    “” McConnell: Trump ‘provoked’ Capitol siege, mob ‘fed lies’””.

    https://apnews.com/article/mcconnell-trump-fed-lies-to-mob-36871d68df56a10be1c46ed364ad6de6

    It’s just a jump to the left
    And then a step to the right
    With your hands on your hips
    You bring your knees in tight
    But it’s the pelvic thrust
    That really drives you insane
    Let’s do the Time Warp again

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w0WPkB3XJ4

    In other news, Morrison is still not holding a fire hose no matter what fire.

  155. “Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell blames Donald Trump for Capitol violence, saying President ‘provoked’ mob.” https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-20/mitch-mcconnell-donald-trump-senate-capitol-siege-provoked/13072392
    “US Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell has explicitly blamed Donald Trump for the deadly violence at the Capitol, saying the mob was “fed lies”, and the President and others “provoked” those intent on overturning Joe Biden’s election.

    Key points:
    Mitch McConnell said Mr Trump and others incited the angry mob that descended on the Capitol
    He vowed a “safe and successful” inauguration of Joe Biden tomorrow
    He and Senate Democratic leader Chuck Schumer met earlier to organise the new Senate chamber
    Ahead of Mr Trump’s historic second impeachment trial, Senator McConnell’s remarks were his most severe and public rebuke of the outgoing President.

    The GOP leader was setting the tone for Republicans who will consider whether to convict Mr Trump on the “incitement of insurrection” impeachment charge that will soon be sent over from the House.
    ‘They tried to use fear and violence’
    “The mob was fed lies,” Senator McConnell said.
    “They were provoked by the President and other powerful people, and they tried to use fear and violence to stop a specific proceeding of the first branch of the Federal Government which they did not like.”
    Sounds like Trump will be impeached now that leading Republican’s are realizing how well Trump trashed their brand.

  156. If they want to rescue their brand they’d better do something about Cruz and Hawley, not to mention the Qanon crazies they have embraced.

  157. Brian that is interesting the rain must have been patchy but very intense (1/100 event claim) in places around Brisbane bayside given the news last night.

    This is interesting, possibly people are fed up with the antics on show.
    “”Pushed to the edge by the Capitol riot, people are reporting their family and friends to the FBI””
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/01/16/capitol-riot-family-fbi/

    9news reports on Morrison’s 2GB interview: “” Deadly Capitol riot ‘detracted’ from Trump legacy … the “extremes” Australians had seen on television screens was not the reality across America most of the time.
    ….
    The prime minister said those who have criticised his working relationship with Mr Trump were misguided.””

    https://www.9news.com.au/national/violence-us-capitol-riot-detracts-from-trump-legacy-scott-morrison/42284375-1506-488d-b394-7564d810ff6c

  158. Brian: “My understanding is that in spite of the riven nature of the US their management practices are generally way better than ours.” My own experience is contrary to this.
    My take is that company (and section) culture varies with people, nature of work and history.
    For example, I could do a lot about the culture of the section I ran at one stage because it was only 100 people, the nature of the work allowed people to talk to each other quite a bit of the time and the section did not spend a lot of time interacting with other sections. Also I had worked my way up so most of the workers would have known me before I became section leader.
    Lot harder to drive change in a larger section where most of the employees sat on their own in airconditioned cabins for most of the day.
    From what he says Jumpy would be OK to work for. The size of his business and the nature of the work would help good team relations.
    Meanwhile, back on topic, Trump would have been a nightmare to work for. Part of the reason for a disastrous Presidency.

  159. Part of the reason for a disastrous Presidency.

    I am reliably informed that Trump has left the White House.
    Pity about the 400,000 who are no longer around to join in the celebrations.

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