Saturday salon 14/4

1. “Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die”

Two problems here. The first is that the above quotation is not found in the bible or Shakespeare, it’s a conflation of Ecclesiastes 8:15 and Isaiah 22:13, plus you could throw in Luke 12:19.

The second problem is more serious. It’s true – kind of. Comprehensive research has shown that if you drink more than five drinks a week every extra glass of wine ‘will shorten your life by 30 minutes’.

In case you think five glasses are OK, they found this:

    “This study makes clear that on balance there are no health benefits from drinking alcohol, which is usually the case when things sound too good to be true.”

There are some benefits from one glass five times a week, but also some negatives.

Some will say, however, that if you don’t drink your life will not only be longer, it will seem longer, much longer.

2. Malcolm Turnbull didn’t walk away from his beliefs – because he never had any

That’s the opinion of Peter Lewis, who runs the Essential Report poll. This weeks report sees the gap widen from 52-48 to 53-47 in favour of Labor. Whereas Bill Shorten’s approval is on 35, which is where it was in 2014, Turnbull’s has sunk from 59 in December 2015 to 39 now. Lewis points out that Turnbull has now lost 80 Essential polls in a row. Lewis looks for why Turnbull has disappointed so many:

    Australians got Turnbull all wrong. He was never a conviction politician. He was only ever a lawyer arguing the brief in front of him. You catch it now and again when he addresses parliament, bashing the unions or defending the coal lobby – the dead look of a man paid to argue someone else’s brief for a living.

    And right now Malcolm Turnbull is an advocate with the toughest of briefs: Malcolm Turnbull.

That may be near the mark. People paid out on Barnaby Joyce when he suggested that Malcolm Turnbull should resign if polling doesn’t improve by Christmas. Various scribes in the Oz were saying the same thing when the 30th losing Newspoll arrived. I think it was Peter van Onselen who suggested that Turnbull stand aside to save the ‘transaction costs’ of having to tip him out.

Maybe there is some positioning by Peter Dutton and Julie Bishop. Who knows?

Meanwhile Turnbull has really upset the Chinese. Turnbull is saying there is no problem, but “Twiggy” Forrest would not be trying to fix a problem that wasn’t there. The only minister getting into China is Steve Ciobo. Twiggy had one minister invited. The Chinese said OK, but then somehow they couldn’t get her visa processed in time.

Funny that. I don’t think it is going to change any time soon. Business is worried and are saying so.

3. Folau furore

Star rugby union player Israel Folau has upset many by saying on Instagram that gay people were destined for hell “unless they repent of their sins and turn to God”.

He was asked a question about God’s plan for gays and gave a straight answer in line with his religious beliefs. I understand he grew up as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) and later switched to an Assemblies of God fellowship (Pentecostals).

He was called in by rugby bosses to discuss his ‘anti-gay’ post, but gave no commitment to change his social media use. Rugby Australia does not plan to discipline him for his remarks. Raelene Castle, the Kiwi woman who is CEO of Rugby Australia, said:

    “We are in a negotiation with Israel to extend (his contract) and we would really like him to stay in rugby, that’s hugely important to us. He is a great player, he has delivered some great outcomes for us and has been a really strong role model in the Pacific Islander community and we would like to see he stays in rugby,” Ms Castle said.

She said he could have expressed himself more respectfully, but is not asking him to change his beliefs.

Folau feels he has a duty to bear witness to his beliefs even if that causes him grief. He has quoted Matthew 5, including verse 10:

    Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

His captain Michael Hooper says Izzy is in a good head space. It is also clear that he is not alone in his beliefs within the team.

Nevertheless Castle has sponsors breathing down her neck, including Qantas, with proudly gay CEO Alan Joyce, expressing concern about Folau but happy to have a commercial relationship with Emirates airline.

ABC’s Emma Griffiths devoted an episode of Focus to the issue, where views varied from those who say it was ‘hate speech’ and should be punished to one caller who said Folau was motivated by love.

Folau is not pushing the issue, he was asked a question and gave an honest answer. I’d say leave him alone. During the same-sex marriage debate Folau said he would vote “No” and explained on Twitter:

    I love and respect all people for who they are and their opinions. but personally, I will not support gay marriage.✌❤🙏

I think we should return his respect, and not make a fuss about it.

BTW here is Folau scoring a try in State of Origin when he played rugby league as the youngest ever to represent the state and Australia:

He’s an incredible athlete, and generally presents as a mild-mannered, gentle person.

4. Commonwealth Games

Most commentary was positive about the Commonwealth Games opening, but not Pauline Hanson. She didn’t like this kind of stuff at all:

    Asked what she thought of the opening ceremony, Senator Hanson said the “20 minutes” devoted to indigenous culture was “absolutely disgusting”.

And:

    “Our country is not based on the Aboriginals. Our country is what it is because of the migrants that have become here,” Senator Hanson said.

    “It was over the top.”

I think we should be proud of Australia’s 65,000 year heritage. It’s time for Ms Hanson to give up this “us and them” stick, but she won’t because it’s all she’s got. There’s more on the opening here,including Charles and Camilla, who seems quite out of sync. Nevertheless Charles’ tour seemed quite successful.

We watched late every night when the swimming and cycling was on, and there were many performances to enjoy. It is always good to beat England, and New Zealand, and South Africa, and India and… When the USA, most of Europe China and Japan are not there we can seem quite good at sport.

These three women won big time although they were unplaced in the race:

Celia Sullohern, Madeline Hills and Eloise Wellings waited about four minutes at the finish line to congratulate Lineo Chaka from Lesotho. The other athletes had long disappeared.

Generally the Games appear to have been held in a good spirit. I was sceptical about the whole concept because the Gold Coast has been a notorious graveyard for sporting teams. Crowds were good, but the shops were empty. The Gold Coast has a population of some 638,000 people, the sixth biggest in Australia. It was school holidays, so the residents probably went somewhere else for a break. And the holiday makers who usually come at that time made other arrangements because they thought the place would be over-run.

Still, I think Brisbane changed from being a big country town around the time of the 1982 Commonwealth Games, and the Gold Coast may also find this a turning point.

Integrating the para events into the main games for the first time was simply brilliant.

5. Comey’s revenge

Most think that Trump’s sacking of FBI chief James Comey was a mistake. Comey has now had time to write a book, due out in the coming week, but The Washington Post has published a preview.

Comey took detailed notes of meetings at the time. Trump comes across as a congenital liar, a self-serving bully, demanding total loyalty, surrounding himself with bullies and liars, presenting a persona reminding Comey of his earlier career of prosecuting the Mob.


    Interacting with Trump, Comey writes, gave him “flashbacks to my earlier career as a prosecutor against the Mob. The silent circle of assent. The boss in complete control. The loyalty oaths. The us-versus-them worldview. The lying about all things, large and small, in service to some code of loyalty that put the organization above morality and above the truth.”

And:


    Comey … ruminates on the psychology of liars in an apparent nod to the current occupant of the Oval Office.

    “They lose the ability to distinguish between what’s true and what’s not,” Comey writes. “They surround themselves with other liars. . . . Perks and access are given to those willing to lie and tolerate lies. This creates a culture, which becomes an entire way of life.”

The FBI have also raided the office of Trump’s private Attorney, Michael Cohen.

Trump thinks they are coming after him, and he’s probably right. You get the feeling that sacking Robert Mueller at this stage would only make things worse.

79 thoughts on “Saturday salon 14/4”

  1. The Lineo Chaka story is indeed how I think of Australia. Very heartwarming.

    Free Range Sailing and Provisioning a yacht. Pascal really knows her stuff when it comes to preparing healthy food. There is a lot of knowledge in this video. Pen and paper, take notes.

    https://youtu.be/n2731wi3MVE

  2. Folau is a Believer? If he says so but a practicing Believer? Not always. If I recall, he had a relationship with a fairly well-known model and he posted an intimate photo of the said model on a public media, or at least it found its way to the public. That is not a Christian thing to do.

    I let Trump get too much of my attention, ‘can’t help myself from watching a country I first visited in 1962. God’s chosen country I thought. These days we have some strange Republicans and Trump.
    I’m hoping Trump will somehow get flicked in the near-term. Information keeps rolling out and I think the Cohen raid is going to throw a fair amount of fuel onto the fire.
    Impeachment coming? I think it more likely he will seek a deal where he steps down with no jail time etc. Then he will write a book (with help) and maybe do a TV show “Be a President” or something. If he does step down that will probably see Pense in the Oval Office. ‘Don’t know too much about him but apparently very Christian (but so is Sarah Huckabee Sanders) and is a staunch opponent of abortion for any reason, including rape and incest.

  3. Given the oldest Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg is almost 86 and a Dem appointee, Trump may get another pick if he can hang on.
    Then we may see some major changes on a lot of fronts.

  4. Perhaps, J

    But if an impeachment trial were to proceed, I don’t think the Supreme Court would have any role in that. Congress would be the final arbiter, no right of appeal, amiright?

    I have no idea what the probability of impeachment is, for the present President.

    The late Mr R. M. Nixon resigned before his trial began.

  5. Your correct Mr A, the Supreme Court has no say in impeachment unless a case against it is brought that it impeachment was unconstitutional.

    Bill Clinton was impeached in the Representatives but not ratified by Congress so the Supreme Court didn’t get involved.

    I don’t know what the betting odds of a full Trump impeachment are but unless it’s better than 100:1 I’m not interested. Seems remote given what other Presidents have gotten away with.

  6. Israel Folau is entitled to his opinions, whether we agree with him or not. For myself, I think it would be good if he also remembered that, 20 centuries ago, Jesus Christ had outcasts and sinners in His company and that He taught us the importance of forgiveness and redemption. Hope Israel Folau continues to play great football and continues to inspire young people.

    Like the comment about Malcolm Turnbull. Is sad – and dangerous for the whole nation – that our Parliament is infested by so many lawyers who forget they are supposed be conducting government and, instead, think and behave as though they are still hired guns in a courtroom. Eloquent and tricky they may be – but do they actual understand the very basics of government?

    Don’t blame that born loser, Trump, for everything. Don’t forget that the Americans themselves kept voting in dud governments ever since Carter left the White House, (Obama was the exception but he was almost completely powerless).

  7. I’m more than a little amused that the latest impeachment manoeuvre rest on campaign financing Laws that somehow hinge on a porn actress, that Trump probably rogered once a decade ago, that was payed to shut up, but didn’t.

    The only twist that hasn’t emerged yet is she urinated on him in Russia in front of Murdoch because the NRA forced her to.

    But I’m sure CNN are connecting the dots as we speak.

    It’s hilarious!

  8. Yes, very funny.

    Mr J, I think you’ll find that four charges were brought against William Clinton, of which two were passed by the House. Then President Clinton faced an impeachment trial in the Senate and was acquitted.

    I was wrong about Mr Nixon. An impeachment process had begun, but I think he resigned the Presidency before any vote to impeach was passed in the House.

  9. Obama had a majority in both Houses for yonks and a Super Majority for about 4 month. Not powerless at all.
    Bernie Sanders was there but not a Democrat.

  10. Mr J

    It might be an idea to read “The New Yorker” article zoot linked to. The author says investigations have moved beyond “collusion with Russia” and “the porn star”.

    Mr Cohen is the President’s lawyer.

    Of course Trump is raging and furious and terrified. Prosecutors are now looking at his core. Cohen was the key intermediary between the Trump family and its partners around the world; he was chief consigliere and dealmaker throughout its period of expansion into global partnerships with sketchy oligarchs. He wasn’t a slick politico who showed up for a few months. He knows everything, he recorded much of it, and now prosecutors will know it, too. It seems inevitable that much will be made public. We don’t know when. We don’t know the precise path the next few months will take. There will be resistance and denial and counterattacks.

    – Adam Davidson, New Yorker (a little magazine published in Mr Trump’s home town)

  11. I did read it Mr A.
    I also looked into his previous contributions and the papers main page.

    I’m sure Trump and Cohen are both scumbags but doing away with lawyer/ client privilege is a dangerous precedent.
    I expect Hillary, Bernie, Elizabeth and Nancy’s lawyers are shitting themselves right now.

  12. We shall see about Trump, but things do seem more chaotic than usual.

    Geoff H, I didn’t know that about Folau, but it seems to me Christians sin quite often.

  13. I’m sure Trump and Cohen are both scumbags but doing away with lawyer/ client privilege is a dangerous precedent.

    This is not a precedent and lawyer/client privilege has not been “done away with”.
    I doubt the people you have named are in the least bit concerned.

  14. It may be different over there, J.
    But in most countries it is illegal for lawyers to involve themselves in any criminal activity.
    And in Anglophone nations, the privilege you refer to is limited in its scope.

    Anyway, we shall see what we shall see.
    I threw my crystal ball away many decades ago.

  15. Anyone

    also 🙂

    This has been an announcement from PA
    Pedants Anon

    Follow our ten point plan and we’ll have you Nit Picking Like a Champion!!

  16. New chair of the ARL Commission Peter Beattie reckons Folau can come back to rugby league and live by his own code if any club succeeds in snaring him. He says we should not get too autocratic about what people can or can’t say.

    Same Peter Beattie says the stuffed up at the Commonwealth Games by not showing the athletes entering on TV in the closing ceremony broadcast.

    Again, it’s what the media want s to froth about when they don’t have any real news.

  17. Didn’t John Oliver promised money to the Trump campaign?

    If he did I’m sure that a fine upstanding netizen like you will provide the link.

  18. Zoot, go fish.

    Or you could again suggest I’m lying, then I’ll show it. 🙂

    Brian

    Yep, the Izzy “ controversy “ was a nuthin and the CG closings ceremony “ debacle “ was a nuthin.

    I’ll give Beattie one thing, no one else plays the “ yes, there was a stuff up, I’m sorry, but I’m the man to fix it. “ as good as him.

  19. Or you could again suggest I’m lying

    I’m suggesting nothing of the sort.
    It’s simply that bald statements like this, or e.g. “Didn’t Jumpy get sprung having sex in a public toilet?” contribute nothing to the conversation.
    They are purely and simply trolling.

  20. Seems the RU has forgiven Izzy, because he meant no harm. Apparently he told them he would give up rugby union if he wasn’t acceptable, but wasn’t going to change his beliefs.

    Raelene Castle is saying it’s good that Izzy has beliefs and will stick to them. I’m not saying it’s good, it’s just a fact.

  21. Hmmm,

    Did Folau have the right to express his comments? Yes, he did. Free speech is alive and well in Australia.

    is ‘moronic’.
    Thanks for the heads up.

  22. You’re true to form zoot, ever selective and consistent.

    That and just about everything else in her drivel is wrong or based on deceit.
    This is a doozy,

    The now well-known federal racial vilification prohibition in section 18C only relates to race, not other grounds. However, many states and territories including Queensland, New South Wales, the ACT and Tasmania, prohibit vilification on the ground of sexuality.

    Haha, she even links to proof she’s useing linguistic sleight of hand.

    Congrats on your punctuality too.

  23. That and just about everything else in her drivel is wrong or based on deceit.

    So are you arguing that Folau did not have the right to express his comments?
    Or are you saying free speech is not alive and well in Australia (i.e. you’re being silenced, silenced I say)?
    Inquiring minds want to know.
    And thank you for your compliments on my punctuality. It’s always gratifying when someone takes the time to appreciate polite behaviour.

  24. If Falau believes that gay people who don’t repent and continue to have gay sex will go to hell and he believes hell is not a nice place to end up, he has a moral responsibility to try and persuade gay people to change.
    When religious door knockers come to our house I tell them that i am not interested but thank them for caring.

  25. The legislation Katharine Gelber herself linked to proves its not.

    In any event, he was ask what God’s plan was.
    If you disagree with his interpretation of Biblical theology then argue that.

    If you disagree with the theology itself then argue with God.

    If you don’t believe in the theology then hell doesn’t exist, therefore there’s no grievance at all.

    Izzy has done no wrong, obviously.

    This so called “ professor “ inventing he has is ludicrous.

  26. John
    He believes that’s what God says, after being asked what God says.

    I don’t believe you are in any position to tell him what his moral responsibility is, no one is.

  27. Dunno how Izzy can generate so much comment meself. People making up the Monash cult are much more culpable than a footballer.
    Let Izzy have his say, like we let Abbott have his say. But Abbott and his cohort can bring far more harm to the world than Izzy is likely to. Interesting they both seem to be religious and blessed with intolerance.

  28. Just to throw in a brief comment….
    Professor Katherine Gelbet asserts that the sportsman in question “is in a position of moral authority”.

    I disagree.

    Mr Folau is a talented sportsman.
    That carries no special authority as far as I can see, unless we have adopted the position that sports women and men are demi-gods, or perhaps Pastors for their flocks, or prophets crying out in the deserts of Tel’evis’ion.

    Margaret Court was an amazing tennis champion, and has the right to express her opinions. But she has that right as a citizen, not because of her one time supremacy in tennis matches; so also do zoot, Jump, and I have the right to free speech. As far as I know, we three are not especially talented in any sport; but that’s basically irrelevant.

    ***

    Roll model?
    Well, some of us can make a very tasty egg and lettuce roll.
    A model roll.

    Cheerio.

  29. Dead right Ambi. I always wonder when some “celebrity” expressing about one matter or another is held out as some kind of beacon or authority on that matter.
    Being a celebrity or such gets you onto the soapbox and maybe an audience but that does not automatically bring an informed view to the speaker.

  30. F@#ken A, Mr A.

    The easily answered question is who is trying to claim moral superiority and it’s not Israel Folau.

  31. Jump/Jumpy Waleed is not obliged to answer any or all questions. I believe it was Lord Denning who explained that if one was asked a question one could choose to answer it or not. But that if he/she did, it should be the truth.
    Perhaps, for his own reasons, Waleed is exercising his option not to reply. That is not the same as “ducking”.

  32. I wonder if his name was Palestine Folau being ask what Allas plan for gay people was would have got ABC to publish an Andrew Bolt opinion piece.

  33. Being a sport aversive sandgroper I neither know nor care about Israel Folau. As far as I’m concerned, he can spout whatever tosh he likes (as can Katharine Gelber, Jump, Jumpy, Margaret Court, Old Uncle Tom Cobbley and all) and anyone can call him on it.
    What has amused me is the amount of energy expended by the free speech warriors decrying criticism of Mr Folau, when the same free speech warriors were silent or loudly critical of Yassmin Abdel-Magied when she posted her now famous comment.
    Far too often in the culture wars “freedom of speech” means “freedom of speech I agree with”.

  34. We are told

    Professor Katharine Gelber researches freedom of speech, human rights and public discourse at the University of Queensland’s School of Political Science and International Studies

    I think she did a good job, not a “moronic rant” as Jump asserts, except I fully agree with Ambi’s point.

    I’m more than a little fed up with people asserting the elite sports people are role models outside what they do in their sport. Most of them are young. Modern psychology is telling us that people don’t have their emotional brain circuitry properly connected to their intellectual circuitry until they are about 24 or 25, on average. Females get there before males.

  35. I haven’t made a study of Folau, but he came to prominence in 2007 when he played for Australia at 18 years and 194 days old, the youngest ever. He then played State of Origin in the following year as a 19 year-old.

    I recall discussion that as a Mormon he would have to take time out to do two years missionary work. He never did it.

    In 2011 at 22 he converted to Australian Rules. I heard on the radio that he suffered psychologically at this time, then turned to the Assemblies of God, which he found of help.

    I understand Folau believes he must bear witness to his faith, so asking him to say nothing won’t wash.

    To Folau, what he said would represent the truth with no wriggle room.

    However, he is not proselytising, he says he respects others’ views. The remarks were not directed at anyone, so it is humbug to call it vilification.

    I believe Instagram can be set to public or private. If Izzy had a private account we shouldn’t be talking about it.

  36. A question:

    Person A says, “I am being silenced. They are trying to silence me.”

    Person B says, “They are criticising you, not telling you to be silent. Also, your statements are being circulated to the public, which demonstrates you are not being silenced.”

    Person A then cites chapter and verse of online comments ranging from “STFU” to obscene language, to death threats.

    ***
    Voltaire had it right: he disagreed with what I said, but he defended strenuously my right to say it.

    And he had self-interest involved: he of all people required his rights of free speech, to lob his critiques in various directions where they might be unwelcome.

  37. OK zoot, I’ll bite.

    1. At the time of WW1 he calls the Empire a distant empire. I disagree.

    2. He says Australians have been indigenised. This is something some are dimly aware of. Not just that some “Anglos” have a little indigenous ancestry in the family tree…

    Makes me think of Aotearoa, over the dutch. As the years roll on, the Maori influence there becomes clearer. … not just that the PM wore a Maori cloak when visiting the Palace of the Monarch of the distant empire, nor the official use of bilingual titles etc.

    Something much deeper. Love of the land and seas. Recognition.

    Good get, zoot.

  38. Greg Jericho writes on the Government’s recent poor showing and along the way he offers a moronic rant considered critique of the fantasy that unregulated capitalism automatically benefits communities.

    What we have seen this past fortnight with the banking royal commission and the revelations about the live sheep trade is what happens when so called free markets operate without, or with no fear of, regulatory control.
    There is no benevolent invisible hand leading companies to produce optimal outcomes for the economy – merely a hand that drives action towards higher profits at whatever cost.
    2,400 dead sheep? Charging dead people for financial advice? This is not a shock, it is capitalism working as intended. It is businesses who lobby for lower regulations (it’s a competitive burden, don’t you know!) taking advantage of lower regulations.

    Well worth reading it all.

  39. Zoot
    How about stating the argument against Capitalism in your own words rather than abrogate that privilege to Jericho that doesn’t realise the Australian financial institutions are some of the most highly regulated in the World and that regulations in the live export industry corrupt the financial motivation ?

    ( that was an actual question rather than statement of fact like “ Didn’t the video reff get it wrong by ruling Billy Slaters knock-on a Try ? )

  40. Now, if only a bank could figure out how to extract fees from each of the deceased sheep.

    I have a question or two for J. How, in your own words, do regulations in the live export trade “corrupt the financial motivation”?

    Don’t the customers expect to receive living animals in good condition? How could humane transport of the animals possibly annoy the customers?

    What does “corrupt” mean, in your dictionary?

  41. Corrupt in my dictionary is intervention to the natural order.

    Right now a farm gate can’t trade with an overseas customer directly. Let’s say you wanted 10 goldfish for $5 each from Saudi Arabia and only 5 turned up alive, how much do you pay the producer ?
    As it is now there’s a government “ MOU “ that makes the producer not give a shit if they’re alive or dead.

    Australia has signed Memoranda of Understanding (MOU) with ten countries in the Middle East and Africa region and negotiations continue with other trading partners in the region. A key element of these MOUs is that animals be unloaded on arrival regardless of their health status.

    Perhaps if the Government pissed off out of it the producer would care more about the welfare of the animals at destination rather than have their obligations end at an Australian port.

    I’m sure all of us was animal suffering to be as tiny as possible, but it’d be counterproductive to rule out greed as a motivator.

  42. That said if transport is, by negotiation, the onus of the purchaser then the Australian port is the end of the producers obligation and the start of the customers obligations.

    If the transport, by negotiation, is the onus of the producer then the destination port is the end of the producers obligations and the start of the consumers obligations.

    It’s pretty simple if Government isn’t involved.

  43. Jumpy:

    Corrupt in my dictionary is intervention to the natural order.

    So the biggest, meanest gang gets what it wants and, by your definition, this is good.
    Can’t complain about your honesty.

  44. That said if transport is, by negotiation, the onus of the purchaser then blah blah blah
    If the transport, by negotiation, is the onus of the producer then blah blah blah.

    Meanwhile the sheep are still dead, apparently killed by an MOU (Foot and MOU disease?)

  45. How about stating the argument against Capitalism in your own words rather than abrogate that privilege to Jericho

    By that logic if I recommended “Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy” by John LeCarre as a bloody good read (which it is), you would insist I write the novel myself.

  46. No John
    The biggest meanest gang ( they go by many names depending on ones perspective) gets what they can get till they infringe on individual rights.

    Then it the Governments job to act.

  47. No zoot, I’m suggesting you haven’t shown the ability to articulate a single thought of your own, rather abdicate that to ‘ perceived authoritative voices ‘.

    I’m chatting with you.

  48. Ok. I’ll let everyone else supply the data and sources because I’m good like that 🙂

    What was the percentage of livestock that died in transit from Australia of total livestock transported ?

    And natural mortality rates on farm ( Australia having one of the best animal welfare reputations on Earth ) ?

    Then we can compare.

  49. J, much as you deplore anecdotes….. well, this is for others then:

    As a young nipper I once accompanied my grandpa in his Land Rover, around some paddocks where the ground was rough. He was on the lookout for any sheep that might have fallen and finished up helpless on their backs, destined to die in a day or two.

    His task of getting them upright was simple and quick. He cared about their welfare. But that was in a mild climate, in a dry part of NZ.

    I have yet to meet an Aussie farmer who was cruel or neglectful to her animals.

    But as to figures I have none.

    BTW, we are not talking about natural mortality when a couple of thousand sheep die on a ship.

  50. Dude, millions are transported and a few thousand die on ship.
    If you are really worries about livestock rather than pissing on Capitalism you’d encourage shooters eradicating feral dogs on farm that kill far, far more.

    Ask a farmer not a guardian, smh, abc or green left weekly agenda pusher.

    Ask an expert.

  51. Jumpy:

    Corrupt in my dictionary is intervention to the natural order.

    Sorry I got it wrong first time. When i think about it your statement would be applauded by the Green extreme. Or have I got it wrong again?

  52. I’m afraid John that today’s extreme greens , the loudest voices at least, want total control of the natural order to corrupt to their ends.

    All nature’s, be it environmental, social or economic are dangerous,ugly and cruel things and also beautiful, inspirational and giving. We can protect ourselves and thrive in it but not control it.

  53. Jumpy there was a dark period of world history when millions died. But by your logic that is mitigated by the proposition that a few billion did not die. I struggle with that.

  54. Geoff
    Eventually everyone dies, can you be more specific as to the period you’re referring to and the likely reason, I’m guessing not Capitalism as the reason.

  55. Jump I refer to the period of ww2 and the lead up to the war. You can draw on your own knowledge of history to deliver the murderous details .

  56. From the limited knowledge I have of the period I’m thinking, from an Australian point of view, 3 months after Germany’s nationalist socialist nazis surrendered a bomb or 2 from freedom loving countries halted the violence of Japanese imperialists.

    I’m not sure how your reference relates to the live export of livestock that farmers would like to see %100 treated humanely. Or how the corrupted trade could be bettered.

  57. Here’s another article Jump will hate. I think it contains some interesting, if oblique insights. It would help if I had read the Communist Manifesto 🙂

    [Trigger warning: it’s long]

  58. J I do not p*ss on capitalism, or Capitalism in its Capitalised version.

    I merely ask that the live sheep trade, be a trade in live sheep. It is a small request. With modern transport and knowledge of animal husbandry it should not be difficult.

    ***
    I have heard that hundreds of pedestrians and passengers and drivers lose their lives, or suffer serious injuries in vehicle collisions, every year in Victoria. This is not fake news from a commo news source.

    In each year, millions of safe road journeys are undertaken. Yet police and public efforts are strongly made, attempting to reduce the numbers of deaths and injuries. Mechanics try to make cars safer, people drive carefully, drunk driving is discouraged.

    All those people, making those efforts, are they basically “p*ssing on Capitalism”? Should they just highlight the millions of safe car journeys and ignore the very few, virtually negligible number of deaths?

    I know, it’s only humans I’m talking about…. Farmers and sheep are more important. But it makes me wonder….

  59. Mr A
    We may both care as much as each other about the welfare of the livestock, we may just disagree on solutions.

    What would your solution entail ?

    Would removing the MOUs between our government and Middle Eastern Governments that I mentioned and linked to above be part of it ?

  60. Jumpy I was not able to continue with your request last night – sorry. But I would like to clarify my position now.
    You said:
    “Dude, millions are transported and a few thousand die on the ship.”
    I failed to see how that could mitigate the suffering of those sheep.
    “Millions died in the war, but hey, a few billion were left” is an application of your logic, and it is clearly abhorrent.
    If you said that some deaths were inevitable due to natural causes that would be OK but if the deaths are caused by indifference or abject cruelty that is not right.

  61. Geoff
    All I wanted is for someone, useing their own “ trusted sources “ to confirm that the mortality rate of livestock during transportation is lower than the mortality rate on farm before they’re transported, even though Australia is rated as a benchmark animal husbandry nation.

    Either no one looked or they did and didn’t want to be seen as agreeing with me.

    The World is a terribly dangerous place and nature is cruel, these livestock are protected and coddled more than any animal in the wild.

    Perspective dude.

  62. Some wild Australian animals are protected in one very special instance Jump.

    Strangely, it is similar to the sheep exports of which we speak.

    The wild animals are native birds. You’re not supposed to hide them in your suitcase or down your strides when flying overseas. It’s so they don’t die in transit.

    Now of course this is a monstrous, corrupt interference in the free trading between a resourceful Aussie and a willing buyer. I mean look at that bloke: he’s probably gone out in the scrub, risked his life in the cause of international aviculture. Australia’s answer to that Attenborough bloke. Absolute champ!

    And some lily-livered tree hugger goes and messes up his small business. No wonder the country’s half way down the gurgler.

    Brink back Mr Abbott, I say.
    He knew how to smuggle a budgie!!

  63. Yeah, my whole argument is aimed at bringing Abbot the PMship again and not a serious case for the reduction of animal suffering.
    Road fatalities, in some way, dashed my attempts initially and bird smugglers was the fatal blow.
    Looks like I’m busted.
    Well done, you’re a winner.

  64. Well done, you’re a winner.

    Since it’s apparently a zero sum game you must be a loser.
    But don’t be downhearted. There are billions of other winners so your failure is negligible compared to their success.

  65. I merely ask that the live sheep trade, be a trade in live sheep. It is a small request. With modern transport and knowledge of animal husbandry it should not be difficult.

    Ah, Ambigulous, your dreams of Australia ever becoming The Clever Country are wonderful but – as this incident shows only too clearly – quite futile. Then again, if those strange concepts of quality assurance, cost effectiveness and return-on-investment ever reached these shores, who knows but all of our exported livestock might even reach their destination in reasonable condition. Sorry, I can’t help being an incorrigible optimist. 🙂

  66. I’ll repeat for those that can’t scroll up,

    Australia has signed Memoranda of Understanding (MOU) with ten countries in the Middle East and Africa region and negotiations continue with other trading partners in the region. A key element of these MOUs is that animals be unloaded on arrival regardless of their health status.

    Zoot, I’m sure you’ll take a good percentage of those winners winnings and give them to a loser like me.
    Thanks in advance I deserve it, it’s my entitlement.

  67. Gee whizz Graham

    D’ya think one day someone might make a fridge big enough to fit on a ship? Then we could just send frozen animal carcasses across the oceans and the tricky business of keeping sheep or cattle alive on long, hot sea voyages would be avoided.

    Ah well, might not happen in my lifetime. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves, eh?

    Cheerio

  68. Let’s not be culturally insensitive to Middle Eastern and African traditions and religious practices regarding food preparation people !
    Also just because Capitalism has made fridges and freezers within your grasp and common prevalence doesn’t mean they have the same socioeconomic privileges !

    Check yourselves please…..

  69. Halal slaughter here followed by frozen transport. Has been done. “We decide which sheep leave our borders and the manner in which they leave.”
    – JWH, export enthusiast

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